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-   -   506 Deliver Us From Evil <AKA Evil Leaper I> (http://quantumleap-alsplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1575)

alsplacebartender 02-18-2003 03:06 PM

506 Deliver Us From Evil <AKA Evil Leaper I>
 
Deliver Us From Evil
March 19, 1966


Oakland, California


When Sam leaps back into Jimmy from a previous leap, things are not as they should be. The family is being torn apart and history has been rewritten for the worse. The answer lies in what Sam discovers next...a second time-traveler named Alia.


Written by: Robin Jill Bernheim, Tommy Thompson & Deborah Pratt
Directed by: Bob Hulme


Rate and comment on this episode!

Vince Beckett 10-06-2005 07:29 PM

Yes, excellent. We find out that Sam is not the only person leaping through time and that there is actually someone ruining peoples' lives.

Janna Galaxy 10-10-2006 04:03 AM

Why would someone want to do that? That's the question that's always bugged me about the Evil Leaper storyline.

Anyhow I LOVE this episode....I had to watch it on a re-run. I was out and stuck in traffic and everyone was talking about it the next day at school.

It's so freaking and thrilling. :) It's awesome!

SamBeckett94 01-23-2007 02:35 PM

I seem to have a different opinion than everyone else! (proud to be different)
 
I didn't like the Evil Leapers or Evil Leaper episodes. I didn't see how they fitted in with the story for QL, and thought that Sam should only be leaping in time, because he made an experiment that was bawled up due to premature launch. I have no problem with the leapers in Mirror Image because that episode is to entirely explain what is going on, but I totally disagree with the 'Evil Leapers'.

Sam Beckett Fan 02-12-2007 12:23 AM

I love the Evil leapers. I didn't much care for this one before however. But I watched it again this morning and I was reminded how intense it is, and how evil Alia started out as. It makes me feel so bad for Sam though. He was so overwhelmed to meet another leaper and he was so volunerable. She took advantage of that by seducing him and setting him up to look like he raped her. After she so convicningly nice, telling Sam how empty she was and how she needed something to feel and to touch and taste that was real. Something that is a very powerful weapon to use against Sam. She seemed to really want to get to know him and relate to him, and obviously to have sex with him, but then she turns around and stabs him in the back and then threatens his life with a gun! Talk about PURE EVIL! Speaking of the gun scene in it is one of my favorite lines from this episode:
"You're not evil Alia, what ever is leaping you through time is."
I just love how Sam can find the good in even the most horrible of situations like when his life is on the line. it makes me think of a line from one of my fav songs (I posted the lyrics in my Sam Theme thread as a matter of fact)
"Oh you find God's grace in every mistake, and always give more than you take."
That's Sam all over, and that's why I was glad that they didn't go with that alternate ending that someone posted about on here somewhere. It did not fit Sam's charactor or the episode AT ALL!

That scene makes me feel bad for him just the way he is though. All he wanted from her was someone to share experiences with, someone to talk to about leaping and its effects and the feelings it brings. He just wanted someone to identify to and she turned out to be his counterpart and tried to kill him. Some way to meet a new leaper. I was really glad that Alia turned good by the second episode.

I also liked how they confused you about Alia because when they first introduce her they show her talking to Zoey as Connie. I remember when I first saw it, I thought Zoey was a friend of Connie's and then I saw her leave through an imaging Chamber door.


After the second time I am liking this episode even better because I like intesneness and there was all kinda of intense conflict in this epsiode, between the La Matta's and the leapers. In fact it was the Leapers or one of them that caused mayhem for the La Matta's. Speaking of the La Matta family it was quite nice to see Sam in a previous leap again and it makes sense that they would chose the La Matta's seen as it's Scott's favorite episode and one of the most popular and meaninful ones. It even had some impact on Al as Jimmy made him think of Trudy. So I found it interesting to see Sam in Jimmy's world a second time.

samnal 02-12-2007 09:40 AM

Nope, didn't think they ever fit in the QL universe and I haven't seen 'em since they were on. Dumb concept, IMO. It was done because NBC insisted on conflict, not compassion. That was the only reason and it's a dumb reason period. I thought they had no place in QL and it was a huge waste of 3 precious hours of QL that could have been been possibly Deborah Pratts animated episode? Or something else? Not this drek. Another thing that made me pretty sick was that they took a golden moment like "Jimmy" and purely destroyed it for me. I think for that alone this thing should never see the light of day again.

Sam Beckett Fan 02-12-2007 01:21 PM

that exactly how I feel about the trilogies, they should be a bad fanfic not actual episodes. :P

Grimlock 02-18-2007 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Beckett Fan
that exactly how I feel about the trilogies, they should be a bad fanfic not actual episodes. :P

One of the best stories in the QL history a bad fanfic:hair

jmellissa 02-20-2007 12:27 AM

I have seen this a few times can't wait to see it again. I like this one mainly because of the twist. Good vrs Evil... its a good one.

Sam Beckett Fan 03-08-2007 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimlock
One of the best stories in the QL history a bad fanfic:hair

Sorry but I am going to have to Hurculean disagree, but this thread is not about Abigale and I dont want to be held responsible for steering this off topic, so lets please get back to Deliver Us From Evil where this discussion belongs.

Lightning McQueenie 08-18-2007 10:34 PM

Zoey didn't leave through the Imaging Chamber door the first time though... she just said she'd better go...

We don't see the Imaging Chamber door til after Alia is revealed...

Sam Beckett Fan 08-18-2007 10:57 PM

Yes of course because they can't show her exiting before they reveal Alia because then they'd be giving her away.

bluedana 08-19-2007 03:22 PM

I love this episode for a couple of reasons. One, it gives us more Frank LaMotta, my second favorite guest performance of the whole series. It also gives us a view of what happens after the leap is over - that Sam's work in Jimmy led to some good results. I think the bedroom scene is one of the best ever done - sexy and suspenseful and heartbreaking and so, so wrong. Watching Frank attack Sam, and Sam's response, is watching acting at its best. I believed that whole scene completely.

I wish the special effects at the end were a bit less cheesy, though, and "Zoe" chews the scenery like it's beef jerky.

Quote:

Why would someone want to do that [ruin people's lives]? That's the question that's always bugged me about the Evil Leaper storyline.
I guess for the same reason that someone would spend hours and hours devising malware and trojans and viruses to destroy people's computers. Just because they can.

isz 08-31-2007 10:49 AM

A fair episode,only.Why - Well read what Samnel said before me.most of what he said is what i think,too.

BTW is it just me or in some ways Zoey character is like a Female Al,only Darker and more Evil?!

Sam Beckett Fan 08-31-2007 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluedana
I think the bedroom scene is one of the best ever done - sexy and suspenseful and heartbreaking and so, so wrong. Watching Frank attack Sam, and Sam's response, is watching acting at its best. I believed that whole scene completely.

I agree, I love how Evil Alia starts out as in this ep before she gets feelings for Sam and turns to his side. Which this scene shows so well, and Yummy shirtless Scott moment! *licks lips* :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by isz
BTW is it just me or in some ways Zoey character is like a Female Al,only Darker and more Evil?!

Yes I believe she is cuz she seems to look at guys a lot, like in the third episode when she admires her host and she even calls Sam delicious.

Lightning McQueenie 09-01-2007 04:19 AM

Not to mention "frat boys" were Zoey's favourite college subject hahaha.

Sam Beckett Fan 09-01-2007 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naggindragon
Not to mention "frat boys" were Zoey's favourite college subject hahaha.

Yeah that's right hehe, in the second epiosde.
So there you have it a clue in every episode that she likes guys.
I just love in this ep when she is watching Sam try to pry his way out of the locked bedroom
"Oh what a tragity, what an absoutly delicious tragidy"
She didn't use the word tragidy though I don't remember what word she used.

Lightning McQueenie 09-02-2007 11:29 PM

It was...

"What a waste... what an absolutely delicious waste..."

Sam Beckett Fan 09-03-2007 01:27 PM

OMG I knew it! I knew Waste was the word! But I was not sure enough. Thanx.

SamBeckett94 05-18-2008 03:55 PM

I posted just about a year ago about this, and I will do it once more to expand on new sentiments.

I was watching the episode last night, and I was thinking how much of an impact Sam had on me at the time. I had tried to be a good person beforehand (I was only nineteen when I first saw the show in '89), but at the time, I had no idea who I wanted to be, so in a way, I 'became' him for a while (looking back on it, I find it quite amusing - I used to comb my hair to try and make myself even look like him, and funnily enough, sometimes it worked*) Anyway, that behaviour stuck with me, and eventually, Quantum Leap became more than just a show to me.

I loved the whole concept of somebody helping others, making the world a better place. I always liked to imagine that there really was - it's a very comforting thought.
But years later, that episode came along, and ruined the whole concept for me - 'Oh, there's a good person here, so we'll throw in someone else to make it more interesting' is basically what they were saying by writing this. The episodes containing the Evil Leapers always seemed 'tacky' to me, concentrated more on the sci-fi element than the drama element.
Contradicted the story, didn't work for the show, and at the time I felt distressed. You may say it's only a TV show, but at the time, the last five years I spent trying to redeem myself for my behaviour in the past nineteen years, and as soon as they ruin the concept, they shatter my illusion.

That is why I feel more strongly about the Evil Leapers than a lot of people. Say what you want, the whole thing may seem silly, but if you had known me at the time before I saw Quantum Leap, you'd understand.

*Doesn't work anymore, though :D

Janna Galaxy 07-15-2008 05:48 PM

Evil only exsists because of good.

CynthialovesQuantumLeap 10-28-2008 02:41 PM

I agree about the this episode with you. I believe taking such a touching and powerful episode as that of Jimmy and having evil leapers was wrong.
I also could not stand the season where Frank sees who he thinks is his wife Connie and Sam after Alia had accused " Jimmy of rape.
That to me just made me upset. Sam worked so hard to help Jimmy and got him accepted with his coworkers and Frank and to do have the evil leapers just upset me.


Quote:

Originally Posted by samnal
Nope, didn't think they ever fit in the QL universe and I haven't seen 'em since they were on. Dumb concept, IMO. It was done because NBC insisted on conflict, not compassion. That was the only reason and it's a dumb reason period. I thought they had no place in QL and it was a huge waste of 3 precious hours of QL that could have been been possibly Deborah Pratts animated episode? Or something else? Not this drek. Another thing that made me pretty sick was that they took a golden moment like "Jimmy" and purely destroyed it for me. I think for that alone this thing should never see the light of day again.


NYCSciFiFan 05-28-2009 11:54 PM

I agree, I wish Jimmy and Frank hadn't been the people at risk. I was really touched by their first QL episode and this one took away from that shining achievement of Sam's.

I thought Zoe was ABSOLUTELY a female Al, with scoping out the opposite sex and making suggestive comments. Interesting that they would replicate the characters in a good vs. evil conflict. Since Sam is so good, and Alia's not all bad, should Al be countered by a prude? Just kidding.

Riddle me this batman: is the actress who plays Zoe the same one who played the housekeeper-ghostee from "Portrait For Troian"?

I guess Zoe's a different character though since the nasty ghostee could sense (or see/hear) Al. She told him, pointblank that "Strangers aren't welcome here." Zoe doesn't notice she's standing next to Al even when he's smoking a cigar and yelling at Sam.

Lightning McQueenie 03-02-2010 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYCSciFiFan (Post 53221)
Riddle me this batman: is the actress who plays Zoe the same one who played the housekeeper-ghostee from "Portrait For Troian"?

I guess Zoe's a different character though since the nasty ghostee could sense (or see/hear) Al. She told him, pointblank that "Strangers aren't welcome here." Zoe doesn't notice she's standing next to Al even when he's smoking a cigar and yelling at Sam.

Yes, Carolyn Seymore played both characters. And they are both definitely different characters.

Stakker 08-10-2011 09:27 AM

I was quite looking forward to the Evil Leapers after a work colleague let it slip that they were awaiting me in the 5th season.

I was a bit disappointed, for all the reasons said above. Why would they do it? blah blah.

Not interested in God/Devil as both infer we're religious, when I'm not.

Anyway, the girl who played Alia was beautiful, but I felt a bit weirded out that Sam and her wouldn't take their eyes off each other...considering he has a wife back in 1999. She was a bit too good to be true, and why would she care anyway, if both are going to leap, they aren't going to have any time to talk about their lives as Quantum Leapers.

Not sure why Sam loves being Jimmy quite so much, as if I remember correctly, playing him the first time was quite traumatic, what with the clumsiness and dastardly workers at the dock, and Connie herself trying to get rid of Jimbo!

All in all, an average episode, and possibly symptomatic that by Season 5, Quantum Leap may have jumped the shark.

Lightning McQueenie 08-11-2011 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stakker (Post 58616)
I was quite looking forward to the Evil Leapers after a work colleague let it slip that they were awaiting me in the 5th season.

I was a bit disappointed, for all the reasons said above. Why would they do it? blah blah.

Not interested in God/Devil as both infer we're religious, when I'm not.

Anyway, the girl who played Alia was beautiful, but I felt a bit weirded out that Sam and her wouldn't take their eyes off each other...considering he has a wife back in 1999. She was a bit too good to be true, and why would she care anyway, if both are going to leap, they aren't going to have any time to talk about their lives as Quantum Leapers.

Not sure why Sam loves being Jimmy quite so much, as if I remember correctly, playing him the first time was quite traumatic, what with the clumsiness and dastardly workers at the dock, and Connie herself trying to get rid of Jimbo!

All in all, an average episode, and possibly symptomatic that by Season 5, Quantum Leap may have jumped the shark.

Well for one thing, Sam didn't KNOW he had a wife and Donna made it clear that she wanted it to stay that way.

And Sam loved being Jimmy again because it felt like going home to his family.

ohboy 08-16-2011 04:35 PM

Interesting interpretation, Stakker. At first, I would have agreed that the Evil Leapers were taking the series in a direction I was uncomfortable with. But the more I think about it, I actually think that a touch of opposition and adversity to Sam's mission could have been a good thing. If the series had moved onto the sixth season, then as long as it wasn't overdone, or had taken the entire mission, the Evil Leaper arc could have been a nice recurring plot-line.

Maybe he likes Jimmy because, in a way, both feel out-of-place in their surroundings. Sam is obviously tossed around to situations and people that he just can't quite grasp, while Jimmy might not be able to fully connect with the people in his life that love him. Just a random thought on my end, though. :P

Al's the Best 03-18-2012 05:03 PM

I actually started to watch the first one where we are introduced to Alia and keep in mind I haven't watched this episode in 19 years when it first aired but anyway when I got near the end where Sam and Alia are standing in the kitchen at night and Alia starts to seduce Sam and pull him into the bedroom I had to turn it off because I knew what was to come and how uncomfortable it made me when I first saw it! But from memory I just remember Alia running her fingernails down her face and neck and then letting out a bloodcurdling scream! Then if I remember correctly Frank runs in and Alia accuses Jimmy of trying to rape her followed by Frank beating the crap out of Sam. Didn't Al show up around this time and say to Sam "Don't hit him Sam, just don't hit him!"? Anyway, you can tell how much that ending had an effect on me! Without watching it I could still see that scene so clearly! Here's how I would have written it! Picture it, instead of having Alia as an evil human being I would have had her as one of Satan's minions who is in the form of a human being, then at the end she confronts Sam and tells him that she has finally ruined a leap for him and that she won't mess up this time! You know like in that other episode I won't mention so I don't spoil it for anyone who hasn't seen it! See I knew they should have had me on their writing staff! LOL!

ChickenStu 07-29-2013 05:42 PM

Like Lee Harvey Oswald this episode was good, but forecast that the show had run it's course and was due to end.

The show had done so well with not having a recurring villain for the previous seasons - and whilst the idea was an intriguing one - it shows signs that the filmmakers are now relying on formula. Especially with Beckett's line at the end about "Alia is not gone". She'll be back boys and girls, Mwah hah hah!

Maybe this could have worked if it was just a one off episode. Could have been quite groovy. But as it stands, it's just a surrender to the formulaic. I know that's not Donald P Bellisario's fault and he was forced to do it...

Also, the motivation that "She's just evil" didn't really sell it for me. Who were these people? How did they get their hands on what is essentially the same technology which Sam Beckett is supposed to have pioneered?

Maybe if we were told Lothos and the rival project were created by a former friend of Sam Beckett's who was aware of what was going on, and was out for revenge... that maybe I could've bought. That he stole what Beckett had created....

But no. Bad idea, badly executed. Shark jumped.

Lightning McQueenie 08-05-2013 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChickenStu (Post 59894)
Like Lee Harvey Oswald this episode was good, but forecast that the show had run it's course and was due to end.

The show had done so well with not having a recurring villain for the previous seasons - and whilst the idea was an intriguing one - it shows signs that the filmmakers are now relying on formula. Especially with Beckett's line at the end about "Alia is not gone". She'll be back boys and girls, Mwah hah hah!

Maybe this could have worked if it was just a one off episode. Could have been quite groovy. But as it stands, it's just a surrender to the formulaic. I know that's not Donald P Bellisario's fault and he was forced to do it...

Also, the motivation that "She's just evil" didn't really sell it for me. Who were these people? How did they get their hands on what is essentially the same technology which Sam Beckett is supposed to have pioneered?

Maybe if we were told Lothos and the rival project were created by a former friend of Sam Beckett's who was aware of what was going on, and was out for revenge... that maybe I could've bought. That he stole what Beckett had created....

But no. Bad idea, badly executed. Shark jumped.

Actually it's clear that Alia is not evil, they made the point that whatever trapped her in time was. Remember that she fought back and refused to kill Sam in the end (an act we find out she was severely punished for).

As for "where did they get almost identical technology that Sam pioneered", we need to remember that an artefact of his ended up in the past (the handlink from The Leap Back) and also in the directly previous episode, Sam reveals his project to the Government under Sodium Pentathol. It's quite possible that one or both of these could have ended up in the hands of the wrong people...

ChickenStu 08-06-2013 08:03 PM

I can accept that explanation I guess. I just thought it would be cool if it was actually explained in the show. That maybe Sam and Al knew someone who they used to be friends with and bought them to work on the project. Yet some sort of conflict arose causing them to have to fire him.

In retaliation, he sets up a rival project under asylum with an enemy of the US, who want the technology for nefarious ends - but need Sam Beckett out of the way, and realise the way to find him is to try and undo some of the good he's already done.

With a bit more narrative meat to it - it probably could've worked better. Although I still maintain that it's not the kind of show that needed a recurring villain, and I'm glad that it was fairly brief.

I mean come on, does anyone here REALLY think it was a good idea?

Lightning McQueenie 08-30-2013 12:04 PM

Something occurred to me today - the way Alia's taking over of Connie affected the family, such as Frank losing his respect and loyalty for her, and Corey believing that his mother doesn't love him, wouldn't happen overnight. Corey himself claims "they're ALWAYS fighting" and told of how it had been affecting Jimmy too, not being able to sleep and blaming himself. And remember that Corey wasn't staying at the house much, with "Connie" not really keeping track (and obviously not caring). Do you think Corey was choosing to stay away as much as possible, or do you think "Connie" just kept shipping him off to get rid of him?

It's not like if the house is suddenly messy then you're going to leave the marriage and run off with another woman, or if a parent yells at a kid all of a sudden the kid believes that his parent doesn't love him/her. "Connie" must have been neglecting and abusing the family and causing conflict for a LONG time for that to happen. So I wonder, just how long HAD Alia replaced Connie for? I'd say probably a few months at least. And she must have done things so gradually that nobody would have noticed a change.

So how could she act like Connie for so long? How could the alternate project get the necessary information they need from Connie for Alia to be able to pull off such a ruse? Do you think they torture their leapees for information? I wouldn't put it past them - after all, they leapee has been removed from their own life with the promise of their life being much worse off when they return. Why would anyone agree to that unless they were under severe torture?

I really wish that if the show had continued to a sixth season, that the Alternate Project could have been explored some more.

Sam Beckett Fan 09-11-2013 04:16 AM

Ever since my QL flame has recently rekindled I have grown to enjoy the Evil Leaper storyline very much though it is certainly no match for the classic aspects and story lines of the shows first few seasons.

The reintroduction of the LaMatta family to introduce Alia and Zoey was brilliant. If you watch this episode back to back after Jimmy, the first time Sam was in this leap you can tell how well they progressed the LaMattas from where he'd left them. Also how well Alia played off it to screw them up in addition to having the women's lib period as the perfect excuse for her destructive behavior towards Frank and Connie's marriage.

Alia was an intensely strong character the way she played off Sam's insecurity completely blinding him to what was really there in front of him just as the aura around him fools the world. Even as a viewer you are made to want to believe her, that is how brilliant a job Renee Coleman did.

The well roundedness of Zoey's character only enhanced the Evil Leaper experience. My best friend and I are huge fans of the fact that she is completely a female version of Al in her opposite sex fetish with Sam as no exception. In the beginning before we are aware of when she tells the story about her neighbor whose clothes she'd agreed to wash "as long as he takes them off first" was one of my favorite moments of hers. It sounded exactly like one of Al's stories. That paired with her cold blood thirst made for a very creative character.

I am suddenly wishing I could remember my initial reaction when Alia had pulled her 180 and cried rape which unfortunately Jimmy's down syndrome made all the more easy a sell. A big reason revisiting this leap worked so well.

I don't exactly buy into some of Sam's monologue, when he said that Alia would be killing herself in killing him. Good and evil must exist together to balance each other not ensure each other's existence. Ever seen portrayals of Utopia such as in the shows Charmed or Angel? This particular case does not fit into the suggestion. Sam and Alia do not represent good vs. evil, they weren't defined by the forces they stand for. There was obviously a part of Alia which did not agree with her sins and wanted out, in contrast to Zoey this stands out quite a bit. While there have been examples of a darkness in Sam such as in Catch a Falling Star where he honestly considered not saving John O'Mally's life and Vietnam when he cared about nothing but his own agenda which resulted in a life being taken, selfishness. Even his hatred of hatred and injustice when you really look at it is darkness. Such as when he beat the **** out the rapist in Raped.
There is both light and darkness in everyone, that which we actually believe in is what is important.
Then again Sam could have also just been BSing to stall her. A method he's used before such as in Permanent Wave.

Request: There is an alternate ending to this episode in which after Sam gets the gun from Alia Ziggy tells him to kill her. I can't seem to find it on youtube, all of two videos I have encountered of it have been removed(though since I didn't actually pay attention they could both very well be the same video). If anyone knows of anywhere it can be found please share with me.

I highly recommend the novel Knights of the Morningstar which adds a fourth encounter with the evil leapers prior to the Midnight Marauder leap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie
I really wish that if the show had continued to a sixth season, that the Alternate Project could have been explored some more.

I as well would have liked to learn more about the Evil project, the backgrounds of the characters, the torture Alia was put though when she'd failed in the LaMatta leap and to have seen more of Thames.

Lightning McQueenie 09-11-2013 07:09 AM

The alternate ending to this episode can be downloaded here.

Sam Beckett Fan 09-11-2013 08:41 PM

Thank you Lightning McQueenie. Should have thought to check right here at Al's Place.
I must say I enjoyed that ending but see why the aired version is much more suitable. What happened here goes against Sam's character, to display himself as a liar and actually consider cold blooded murder is not him.

Lightning McQueenie 01-06-2014 03:11 AM

I watched this episode recently, and what I said before about thinking Alia must have been there for a long time still stands. So I think the writers made a mistake at the end (after Alia's leap) saying that they lost two DAYS. It should have been two MONTHS. If it had only been two days, Frank, Corey and Jimmy would still be holding resentments against Connie, and possibly some of what Alia started could still come to pass (e.g. Frank and Connie breaking up, Jimmy being institutionalised, etc).

Something else that stuck out to me, when Sam originally leapt into Jimmy, Connie was the one who was most put-out by Jimmy living there due to her worry about Corey's safety (and him breaking everything around him) with Frank constantly believing in him; but in this leap, it's a complete role-reversal. "Connie" was the one who was putting the most faith in Jimmy, trying to get him literate and independent, while Frank was the one worried about him being pushed too hard...

Sam Beckett Fan 06-09-2014 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie (Post 60952)
I watched this episode recently, and what I said before about thinking Alia must have been there for a long time still stands. So I think the writers made a mistake at the end (after Alia's leap) saying that they lost two DAYS. It should have been two MONTHS. If it had only been two days, Frank, Corey and Jimmy would still be holding resentments against Connie, and possibly some of what Alia started could still come to pass (e.g. Frank and Connie breaking up, Jimmy being institutionalised, etc).

I believe I can explain this.
Sam was suggested by his outfit to have been sent back to the day he had arrived though a few hours earlier. This means his actions had been erased which only makes sense as being because Alia's actions also had been, making Sam's unnecessary. This is even implied when Frank tells him that Connie was at her sister's, still at her sister's in fact. This means Connie had made the trip at least several days prior but it wouldn't matter if it had only been an hour prior, whatever the time frame was, sensibly the trip was likely made during the time when Alia had been there but before Sam arrived. So the only way it would be possible in the reset version of the timeline is if Alia had never been there.

This could also explain why Sam was sent slightly further back then when he'd arrived, to accommodate the fact that Alia's actions no longer happened. This could have changed the circumstances of his original arrival.

Apologies, I'm finding it difficult to word this so it's not too confusing to follow. I hope you understand what I'm getting at well enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie
Something else that stuck out to me, when Sam originally leapt into Jimmy, Connie was the one who was most put-out by Jimmy living there due to her worry about Corey's safety (and him breaking everything around him) with Frank constantly believing in him; but in this leap, it's a complete role-reversal. "Connie" was the one who was putting the most faith in Jimmy, trying to get him literate and independent, while Frank was the one worried about him being pushed too hard...

Actually the Connie we're seeing throughout the entire episode though we aren't always aware is Alia. Who knows what Jimmy's relationship was with the real Connie.
This triggers a sudden thought. How come the real Jimmy before Sam's arrival seemingly did not see Alia and Zoe? Wouldn't his mental illness allow it as it did Tibby in Shock Theater? Zoe could have simply been cautious with her appearances but Alia...?

Lightning McQueenie 06-09-2014 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Beckett Fan (Post 61121)
I believe I can explain this.
Sam was suggested by his outfit to have been sent back to the day he had arrived though a few hours earlier. This means his actions had been erased which only makes sense as being because Alia's actions also had been, making Sam's unnecessary. This is even implied when Frank tells him that Connie was at her sister's, still at her sister's in fact. This means Connie had made the trip at least several days prior but it wouldn't matter if it had only been an hour prior, whatever the time frame was, sensibly the trip was likely made during the time when Alia had been there but before Sam arrived. So the only way it would be possible in the reset version of the timeline is if Alia had never been there.

This could also explain why Sam was sent slightly further back then when he'd arrived, to accommodate the fact that Alia's actions no longer happened. This could have changed the circumstances of his original arrival.

Apologies, I'm finding it difficult to word this so it's not too confusing to follow. I hope you understand what I'm getting at well enough.



Actually the Connie we're seeing throughout the entire episode though we aren't always aware is Alia. Who knows what Jimmy's relationship was with the real Connie.
This triggers a sudden thought. How come the real Jimmy before Sam's arrival seemingly did not see Alia and Zoe? Wouldn't his mental illness allow it as it did Tibby in Shock Theater? Zoe could have simply been cautious with her appearances but Alia...?

I don't think you quite understood what I meant though SBF. The fact that the effects of Alia's presence can only have happened with a "boiling the frog" situation, in other words, happening so gradually that nobody notices until it's too late to change anything. I 100% agree with you that Sam was sent back to a point before Alia leapt in, as all of what she had done was reset as though she'd never been there. The point I'm making is that she had to have been there for a lot longer than two days so that the family really would feel neglected and unloved and cause all the bad blood between them. Like I said, it doesn't make sense that they would only lose two DAYS, they should really have lost two MONTHS or more...

As for your other question, about the real Jimmy seeing Alia and Zoe, I was wondering something similar myself. Especially because Al tells Tibby he has mild down syndrome, the same condition that Jimmy has. There are a couple of possible explanations:

- Jimmy has the capacity of a child. Maybe Alia and Zoe had pretended to be angels, kind of like how Sam and Al did with Theresa. He may have been fully aware that Alia and Zoe were there, but they may have simply been fooling him into thinking they were there to help, instead of wreck everyone's lives. I don't think this is the case though, as they would have realised something was wrong when Sam leapt in, suddenly believing Alia was Connie again. Also, if Al or Dr Beeks had talked to Jimmy in the Waiting Room, he would tell them about the imposters.

- In "Trilogy" Sam states that Laura's mental state was simply a result of her being confined for so long, and that she was a perfectly well-functioning person beforehand. Perhaps this means that Tibby was in a mental state capable of seeing Sam and Al because of his confinement too. Perhaps his down syndrome had no effect at all...

- Perhaps when Jimmy was mainstreamed, he was able to function well enough so that his condition didn't affect his mental state much, if at all. Being out of the alpha state that the mentally ill go into, it would make sense he can't see Alia and Zoe...

I'm leaning more towards the second and third explanations myself, and it would back up their belief in the "Jimmy" episode that when mainstreamed, people with down syndrome are capable of taking care of themselves, holding a job, and being productive members of society.

Sam Beckett Fan 06-11-2014 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie
I don't think you quite understood what I meant though SBF. The fact that the effects of Alia's presence can only have happened with a "boiling the frog" situation, in other words, happening so gradually that nobody notices until it's too late to change anything. I 100% agree with you that Sam was sent back to a point before Alia leapt in, as all of what she had done was reset as though she'd never been there. The point I'm making is that she had to have been there for a lot longer than two days so that the family really would feel neglected and unloved and cause all the bad blood between them. Like I said, it doesn't make sense that they would only lose two DAYS, they should really have lost two MONTHS or more...

Apologies, my concern about being unclear was apparently justified.
Sam was not sent back to a point before Alia's arrival in my head canon; he was sent back to the day he arrived but a few hours earlier it appeared. That's where the two days came from.
What I was getting at is that he didn't have to be sent back to a point before Alia's arrival for the effects of her presence to have been erased. It still makes sense, supposedly this is the Almighty here.
In fact as I pointed out it's implied that they were erased.

In addition I agree with you, Alia had to have been there for at least two weeks to a month to do the prolonged damage she did but Sam was not. Am I being more clear now?
Interesting since the longest Sam ever remained in a leap was the two weeks he'd spent with Tamlyn in Temptation Eyes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lightning Queenie
As for your other question, about the real Jimmy seeing Alia and Zoe, I was wondering something similar myself. Especially because Al tells Tibby he has mild down syndrome, the same condition that Jimmy has. There are a couple of possible explanations:

- Jimmy has the capacity of a child. Maybe Alia and Zoe had pretended to be angels, kind of like how Sam and Al did with Theresa. He may have been fully aware that Alia and Zoe were there, but they may have simply been fooling him into thinking they were there to help, instead of wreck everyone's lives. I don't think this is the case though, as they would have realised something was wrong when Sam leapt in, suddenly believing Alia was Connie again. Also, if Al or Dr Beeks had talked to Jimmy in the Waiting Room, he would tell them about the imposters.

- In "Trilogy" Sam states that Laura's mental state was simply a result of her being confined for so long, and that she was a perfectly well-functioning person beforehand. Perhaps this means that Tibby was in a mental state capable of seeing Sam and Al because of his confinement too. Perhaps his down syndrome had no effect at all...

- Perhaps when Jimmy was mainstreamed, he was able to function well enough so that his condition didn't affect his mental state much, if at all. Being out of the alpha state that the mentally ill go into, it would make sense he can't see Alia and Zoe...

I'm leaning more towards the second and third explanations myself, and it would back up their belief in the "Jimmy" episode that when mainstreamed, people with down syndrome are capable of taking care of themselves, holding a job, and being productive members of society.

You've got some very well thought out suggestions here.
The first one doesn't fit and you nailed why but have a small add on. I am not so sure that Jimmy could have been made to understand that he would have needed to address Alia as Connie. Recall in Another Mother little Teresa addressed Sam as Sam even in front of Kevin(who of course didn't pay it much attention because she was supposedly just being a little dork).
Teresa may have been much younger than Jimmy but remember Jimmy is mentally a child, that's what Down Syndrome is and why I believe it would qualify as a circumstance under which one can see Sam and Al.

Here's the thought I had in mind; unless my memory isn't serving me Al had once mentioned that Jimmy had the mental maturity of a 12 year old am I right? 12 is beyond the maximum age at which a child is pure enough to see Sam and Al.

Now Tibby is an interesting case. He didn't seem to have DS as severely as Jimmy so he too is questionable as qualifying. So this leads me to look at your confinement suggestion. It's true, confinement can do things to one's mind. Ever see the film Desturbia? I'd actually not picked up on that about Laura Fuller. I thought she'd lost her mind from having accidentally killed Violet.

So you may be right, Down Syndrome might not necessarily be a qualifying factor.
Interestingly Bestie and I wrote a leap in which Sam was put into the institution where Trudy was the year she died and she who was said to have it worse than Jimmy could see him. She saw Al (hologram Al) as well in a scene or two but of course she did not recognize him, she wouldn't.

Lightning McQueenie 06-11-2014 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam Beckett Fan (Post 61126)
Apologies, my concern about being unclear was apparently justified.
Sam was not sent back to a point before Alia's arrival in my head canon; he was sent back to the day he arrived but a few hours earlier it appeared. That's where the two days came from.
What I was getting at is that he didn't have to be sent back to a point before Alia's arrival for the effects of her presence to have been erased. It still makes sense, supposedly this is the Almighty here.
In fact as I pointed out it's implied that they were erased.

In addition I agree with you, Alia had to have been there for at least two weeks to a month to do the prolonged damage she did but Sam was not. Am I being more clear now?
Interesting since the longest Sam ever remained in a leap was the two weeks he'd spent with Tamlyn in Temptation Eyes.



You've got some very well thought out suggestions here.
The first one doesn't fit and you nailed why but have a small add on. I am not so sure that Jimmy could have been made to understand that he would have needed to address Alia as Connie. Recall in Another Mother little Teresa addressed Sam as Sam even in front of Kevin(who of course didn't pay it much attention because she was supposedly just being a little dork).
Teresa may have been much younger than Jimmy but remember Jimmy is mentally a child, that's what Down Syndrome is and why I believe it would qualify as a circumstance under which one can see Sam and Al.

Here's the thought I had in mind; unless my memory isn't serving me Al had once mentioned that Jimmy had the mental maturity of a 12 year old am I right? 12 is beyond the maximum age at which a child is pure enough to see Sam and Al.

Now Tibby is an interesting case. He didn't seem to have DS as severely as Jimmy so he too is questionable as qualifying. So this leads me to look at your confinement suggestion. It's true, confinement can do things to one's mind. Ever see the film Desturbia? I'd actually not picked up on that about Laura Fuller. I thought she'd lost her mind from having accidentally killed Violet.

So you may be right, Down Syndrome might not necessarily be a qualifying factor.
Interestingly Bestie and I wrote a leap in which Sam was put into the institution where Trudy was the year she died and she who was said to have it worse than Jimmy could see him. She saw Al (hologram Al) as well in a scene or two but of course she did not recognize him, she wouldn't.

Oh I'm sure Violet's death also had a part to play in Laura's mental state as well. But she didn't actually kill Violet, when Violet was running away from Laura she'd run onto the boarded up well. Laura tried to get her off the boards as she (rightly) thought they could break but was too late. Like she said, she tried to catch Violet but was only able to grab the locket...

What I don't really understand is why Laura never reported it. If Laura had called an ambulance they may have been able to retrieve Violet's body and treat her injuries / resuscitate her. We actually aren't given any confirmation that Violet died instantly. Maybe because of Abigail beating Violet up, the rivalry beween Laura's and Leta's families, combined with the town's beliefs about her mental state, made Laura believe if it was ever found out she'd be charged with murder. Mind you, the alternative, rotting away in a mental institution, wouldn't be considered any better...

Anyway, didn't mean to turn this into a Trilogy thread. Back on topic, yes Al said Jimmy had a capacity of a 12 year old, so yes, it could be that he wasn't innocent enough to see Alia and Zoe. And yes, I suppose it makes sense that Sam didn't have to go back to before Alia had leapt in. In fact, there really was no reason why he had to go back in time at all after Alia leapt out - he could have just witnessed the timeline change around him as though Alia had never been there...


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