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Old 11-18-2013, 08:29 AM   #126
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Honestly I am not sure I agree with that early concept of the committee monitoring the imagining chamber and enforcing the rules. If this were the case the doubt that Sam was time traveling in Honeymoon Express should not have existed.
You have to remember though that at that stage in the project, Al was the only one who could see the hologram that was Sam and everything around him. Even though the committee members went into the chamber, there is no reason to believe that they actually could see or hear anything except for what would look like Al talking to himself...
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Old 11-18-2013, 12:54 PM   #127
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Makes me wonder what was happening behind the scenes to make Whitesman pretty much have full control of the committee?
He might have had dirt on everyone. When Al blackmailed him he might have just been giving him what he normally dishes out to everyone else.

The 'take your medicine' line is such a put-down.
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Old 11-18-2013, 03:57 PM   #128
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That's a good question. He was wearing the Fermi suit when he leaped, so if he's leaping as himself in his own aura he should still be in the Fermi suit. A good argument in favor of this leap taking place in Sam's head.

The same question comes up in the leap out of 'Shock Theater' and into 'The Leap Back'. Sam's still wearing the hospital clothes. Did the leapee return in the leap suit? The doctors and nurses must have found that interesting.
Exactly the 'Shock Theater' leap out has been on my mind too. And if Beaterman had returned in the Fermi suit than what did Al's leapee Tom Jerett arrive in the waiting room wearing? Al's clothes maybe, the shiny brown suit he was wearing during the simo-leap but it's still something to think about.
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Old 11-19-2013, 07:51 AM   #129
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The idea of Sam in the beginning not having very good aim for his leap-ins is an intriguing one. It actually makes a lot of sense that since he controls his leaping, his leaping skills would start out rather poor and need practice.

So in what episodes do you think he did a poor job with his leap in?

Personally I think "So Help Me God" is an example of where he could have done much better. He leapt in at the moment he would have to give Lila's plea, which is in fact the pivotal moment for whether he would be able to do what God wanted, which was for the innocent Lila to be free and for the truth to come out. It's just VERY lucky he saw the truth in Lila's eyes at the last minute.

This makes me wonder, was there another mission intended on this leap? Ziggy seemed to think so, as she ruled out proving Lila's innocence as in the original history Lila had pleaded guilty and received 20 years imprisonment. If Sam hadn't changed the plea to Not Guilty, would this have been considered a fail for the leap? Or was there anything else he could have done?
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Old 11-19-2013, 02:17 PM   #130
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The idea of Sam in the beginning not having very good aim for his leap-ins is an intriguing one. It actually makes a lot of sense that since he controls his leaping, his leaping skills would start out rather poor and need practice.

So in what episodes do you think he did a poor job with his leap in?

Personally I think "So Help Me God" is an example of where he could have done much better. He leapt in at the moment he would have to give Lila's plea, which is in fact the pivotal moment for whether he would be able to do what God wanted, which was for the innocent Lila to be free and for the truth to come out. It's just VERY lucky he saw the truth in Lila's eyes at the last minute.

This makes me wonder, was there another mission intended on this leap? Ziggy seemed to think so, as she ruled out proving Lila's innocence as in the original history Lila had pleaded guilty and received 20 years imprisonment. If Sam hadn't changed the plea to Not Guilty, would this have been considered a fail for the leap? Or was there anything else he could have done?
That's a good example. Another one is 'The Right Hand of God'. He leaps in just in time to get punched in the face. Talk about bad aim. Unless Sam subconsciously thought he deserved a punch in the face at that moment. lol, it's a stretch but maybe unconsciously he felt guilty for using the project for his own benefit when he knew he wasn't supposed to, according to his own rules -- of course then that would make it a targeted leap with perfect aim.
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Old 11-19-2013, 04:52 PM   #131
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Another one is 'The Right Hand of God'. He leaps in just in time to get punched in the face. Talk about bad aim. Unless Sam subconsciously thought he deserved a punch in the face at that moment. lol
Ha, it fits with his opening narration.

"You know, this leaping about in time has it's advantages. Like reuniting the love of my life with her father and even though I wasn't supposed to effect anyone in my personal future, I figured the big guy upstairs would understand."

*Leaps in, gets punched in the face.*

"Then again, maybe he didn't."


XD

Another badly aimed arrival was Glitter Rock where he entered in the middle of the act and thus didn't know any of the songs or music and decided to be an idiot and sing 'Oh Boy' right into the mic! Nice move Sam, you saved the show! XD

Probably one of his worst and more intrusive aims was the second Trilogy where he leaps into Abigail's nether regions. XD Though he of course falls for and willingly makes love to her later it was obviously very startling as an arrival. Especially Sam being the very shy and moral man that he is.
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Old 11-19-2013, 09:29 PM   #132
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Another badly aimed arrival was Glitter Rock where he entered in the middle of the act and thus didn't know any of the songs or music and decided to be an idiot and sing 'Oh Boy' right into the mic! Nice move Sam, you saved the show! XD
Not to mention "Song for the Soul" where he leaps into the girl group when they're being encored :P
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Old 12-12-2013, 07:11 PM   #133
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Not to mention "Song for the Soul" where he leaps into the girl group when they're being encored :P
Haha best friend and I just watched that episode not long ago, he also bangs his head while stumbling off stage! XD Poor Sam. (BTW the way Sam hustles the girls through the late night streets going home was hilarious. You're a teenage girl Sam, not a father!)


****

BTW folks, I've discovered something while reading the novel 'Obsessions'.
Remember in Thou Shalt Not when Al joking tells Sam "Try clicking your heels together three times and saying there's no place like home"? Personally I find it intriguing how right he actually was.
Anyway in 'Obsessions' there's a flashback scene where Sam, Al and Donna are standing in the accelerator chamber and Sam is expressing how he actually fears the retrieval program's failure. In this scene Al makes a similar 'Wizard of Oz' suggestion.

"You'll figure it out," Al announced. "There's got to be a workable retrieval program. Dorothy got home didn't she?"
Sam stared at his partner for a second, then made an ugly noise.
"Maybe that's the trick." Al went on keeping his voice light. "Just think yourself there and back. It'd be cheaper."


Sam goes on to snap at him for joking when he should have actually taken that into consideration. I found this intriguing, the suggestion that even if it were subconsciously Al, who probably has at least one of the lowest IQs on the project (sorry Al, no offense) was the one who knew the answer all along. They didn't even really need Sammy-Jo and her theory (whatever it was, I'm interested in that, I wish they'd disclosed) they just needed to convince Sam to have a little faith in his own abilities. This much we know from Mirror Image.
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Old 12-12-2013, 07:35 PM   #134
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I found this intriguing, the suggestion that even if it were subconsciously Al, who probably has at least one of the lowest IQs on the project (sorry Al, no offense) was the one who knew the answer all along.
I don't know if I'd necessarily assume that. There are different types of intelligence. I could see where Al would pick something like this up where Sam or someone else might not.

I haven't read this one yet but sounds interesting.
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Old 12-12-2013, 11:06 PM   #135
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I don't know if I'd necessarily assume that. There are different types of intelligence. I could see where Al would pick something like this up where Sam or someone else might not.

I haven't read this one yet but sounds interesting.
True high scientific intelligence tends to overlook that type of thing.

It's a unique and interesting story though I feel Sam was portrayed a little too shy especially when it came to his marriage with Donna. I am enjoying it though.
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Old 12-12-2013, 11:38 PM   #136
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Al may not have been scientifically as smart as Sam, but he was streetwise and feisty in a way Sam wasn't. Scott and Dean had a wonderful chemistry.

I liked Obsessions, but in my opinion the author portrayed Sam as too irritable and self-centered. He was a bit cranky sometimes-he was human, he wasn't perfect-but he always snapped out of it. She even made Al too irritable. He was rough around the edges but he was a decent person underneath it all. She did the same thing in Mirror Image. Oh well. I'll have to read through the novels again, it's been awhile.
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Old 12-12-2013, 11:49 PM   #137
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Al may not have been scientifically as smart as Sam, but he was streetwise and feisty in a way Sam wasn't. Scott and Dean had a wonderful chemistry.
Al was definitely more streetwise. But he also went to M.I.T. so he definitely had a certain amount of book and scientific smarts too. His IQ wasn't as high as Sam's of course -- no one's was, Sam was the smartest human being in the world or whatever. But I think he at least had to be somewhere in the ballpark intellectually for them to be such good friends.

Is this the novel with the backstory of Sam picking up Donna in a bar? I remember you talking about that one.
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Old 12-13-2013, 01:41 AM   #138
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I think Obsessed was the one where Sam met Donna in a bar...Which wasn't something Sam would have done either. Al was smart, and he would have had to be to be involved in with a project like Sam's. As was pointed out people are smart in different ways though. Of course they had things in common, but they were different enough to keep things interesting too. :-)
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Old 12-13-2013, 02:27 AM   #139
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Sam goes on to snap at him for joking when he should have actually taken that into consideration. I found this intriguing, the suggestion that even if it were subconsciously Al, who probably has at least one of the lowest IQs on the project (sorry Al, no offense) was the one who knew the answer all along.
I disagree, Al easily had a very high IQ. Just think about what he said in the Genesis

Sam: Can't you just fade in or something?
Al: You tell me how to "fade in" agitated carbon quarks, and I'll make the scientific journals.
Sam: Just don't sneak up on me!

Writing scientific journal articles is incredibly difficult, even if Sam could explain it to Al, Al would still have to do a great deal of research to be able to write it up and have it published...
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Old 12-13-2013, 02:55 AM   #140
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I disagree, Al easily had a very high IQ. Just think about what he said in the Genesis

Sam: Can't you just fade in or something?
Al: You tell me how to "fade in" agitated carbon quarks, and I'll make the scientific journals.
Sam: Just don't sneak up on me!

Writing scientific journal articles is incredibly difficult, even if Sam could explain it to Al, Al would still have to do a great deal of research to be able to write it up and have it published...
All good points. And as I said above, Al did go to M.I.T., as we find out in a later episode. So he was no slouch in the brains department. The two characters certainly have different ways of thinking and different approaches to things, and it made them perfect foils for one another, both in figuring out the leaps and no doubt when they were building the project too. Al is more experienced and definitely more street smart than Sam. Sam is a scientific genius, his IQ is off the charts and so there are probably theories and knowledge in his head that he can't make anyone else understand, including Al. But Al still had to be somewhere in the ballpark or they wouldn't have had anything to talk about.
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Old 12-13-2013, 03:55 PM   #141
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I'm going to have to watch The Leap Back again so I can giggle through the scene in the diner.
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Old 12-13-2013, 05:13 PM   #142
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I think Obsessed was the one where Sam met Donna in a bar...Which wasn't something Sam would have done either. Al was smart, and he would have had to be to be involved in with a project like Sam's. As was pointed out people are smart in different ways though. Of course they had things in common, but they were different enough to keep things interesting too. :-)
If that's true than I haven't read it yet as it's not in my knowledge. This may be a re-read but it's been easily 3-4 years since I last read them.
Agreed that Sam is portrayed not only a bit too self centered but quite a but too shy. He's made out to be downright phobic to being touched particularly by Donna and while yeah he can be uncomfortable with physical intimacy that's only when he doesn't know or isn't sincere about the other person. With Donna I heavily doubt he'd be uncomfortable the way they made him.

Personally I believe Mirror's Edge was amazing, and that for that situation Sam had been characterized well. It makes sense that he'd be growing tired and frustrated with leaping.
Perhaps his being a workaholic pre-leap is questionable especially when it interfered with being with his family and having sex with Donna but it's not exactly impossible given what had to be put into this project to make it function.

One novel while enjoyable that I do feel Al was heavily over irritable is Double or Nothing but then again that entire story was just eh for me. I also felt the selfish portion of Sam which had leaped into one of TWO leapees (identical twins who were rivals) was also written overly cruel. Come to think of it I have not written my review of this one here at its thread yet. I might do that.

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I disagree, Al easily had a very high IQ. Just think about what he said in the Genesis

Sam: Can't you just fade in or something?
Al: You tell me how to "fade in" agitated carbon quarks, and I'll make the scientific journals.
Sam: Just don't sneak up on me!

Writing scientific journal articles is incredibly difficult, even if Sam could explain it to Al, Al would still have to do a great deal of research to be able to write it up and have it published...
While I am not disagreeing (since he also did define a quark in 'Shock Theater' to Jesse Tyler/Sam) don't forget that he can at times be sarcastic with such comments.

By the way I said Al might have the lowest IQ ON THE PROJECT. Having the lowest IQ on the project wouldn't necessarily mean he has a low IQ. There's a difference. Put Al in a room full of under educated homeless people, like Tibby of 'Shock Theater' for example and he'd probably have the highest there.
Obviously to have been hired by Sam Al's IQ is higher than the average person.
In turn though Sam has probably the highest IQ in existence if you placed him in a room full of 'Baywatch' trivia masters, he'd probably be an idiot. Since I don't see 'Baywatch' being his thing hehe. There are a lot of areas where even Sam doesn't know the first thing, 'Thou Shalt Not' for example, the Jewish practices at the Bat Mitzvah. Doesn't mean he wasn't still intelligent.

Also all those mentions of Quarks and fading in, whose to say Al knew all that before he met Sam. Also recall in 'Glitter Rock' how he couldn't even pronounce Schizophrenia let alone knew what it was.

The idea that Al knew that answer while Sam couldn't entertain it is still intriguing because given Sam's background he probably attended Church with his family so for him to lack so much faith compared to a man who lost it after he believed it betrayed him is pretty amazing.
I guess I shouldn't have made the IQ reference, it really isn't important.
My point was simply that I love how Al had seemed to know the answer before Sam even leaped so they hadn't needed one yet.
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Old 12-13-2013, 08:52 PM   #143
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I would have to refresh my memory too, I'm not absolutely positive Obsession is the one where Sam met Donna in a bar. It was in one of the novels though, and it stood out for me because it was out of character for Sam. I didn't dislike Obsessions, I just didn't totally agree with how she portrayed the characters. I actually found something to like about all the novels even if I liked some more than others.
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Old 12-13-2013, 10:02 PM   #144
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Agreed that Sam is portrayed not only a bit too self centered but quite a but too shy. He's made out to be downright phobic to being touched particularly by Donna and while yeah he can be uncomfortable with physical intimacy that's only when he doesn't know or isn't sincere about the other person. With Donna I heavily doubt he'd be uncomfortable the way they made him.
That is really weird. Unless this is the one where Sam picked Donna up in a bar and that's why he was so uncomfortable with her, in which case to me it still sounds completely out of character for him anyway.

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By the way I said Al might have the lowest IQ ON THE PROJECT. Having the lowest IQ on the project wouldn't necessarily mean he has a low IQ.
I don't know that I agree he has the lowest IQ on the project either.

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Also recall in 'Glitter Rock' how he couldn't even pronounce Schizophrenia let alone knew what it was.
This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with IQ though. He could've been fumbling over the word for whatever reason, and maybe he never read too much about it. A lot of people don't know what schizophrenia is or they have a complete misunderstanding of it. Sam is an M.D. so even though his specialty wasn't psychiatry he might be more familiar with mental illness than a lay person. Unless Al worked in the field or had a specific interest in mental illness I doubt he would be reading up on schizophrenia. That has nothing to do with intelligence though.
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Old 12-13-2013, 11:43 PM   #145
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That is really weird. Unless this is the one where Sam picked Donna up in a bar and that's why he was so uncomfortable with her, in which case to me it still sounds completely out of character for him anyway.
Personally I am not sure I buy Donna in a bar either. Perhaps the one from the original timeline who left Sam at the alter but not the one who married him. It wasn't only when he met her though that he was portrayed as being phobic of being touched. Like I said I have not even read that yet. There was another flashback where Donna opened up about her previous fiancee (a set up by her mother who just wasn't the one, same as it's told in Mirror's Edge). She felt Sam needed to be warned in case her mother brought it up around him and he was super uncomfortable reciprocating. Even when she assured him that he didn't have to talk to her about his previous relationships he still tried to squeeze something out and to me reading it it felt like he was trying not to puke. Sam's a very sensitive guy of course but I think he'd be open with his wife.

And I see what you mean about Al Blue. Again sorry and thanks to all for the insight.
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Old 12-13-2013, 11:55 PM   #146
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Personally I am not sure I buy Donna in a bar either. Perhaps the one from the original timeline who left Sam at the alter but not the one who married him. It wasn't only when he met her though that he was portrayed as being phobic of being touched. Like I said I have not even read that yet. There was another flashback where Donna opened up about her previous fiancee (a set up by her mother who just wasn't the one, same as it's told in Mirror's Edge). She felt Sam needed to be warned in case her mother brought it up around him and he was super uncomfortable reciprocating. Even when she assured him that he didn't have to talk to her about his previous relationships he still tried to squeeze something out and to me reading it it felt like he was trying not to puke. Sam's a very sensitive guy of course but I think he'd be open with his wife.
I thought Sam had said he met Donna at Starbright in the original timeline. Maybe he remembered it wrong. But I don't think it's in character for either of them. I never got the sense that Sam picked women up in bars, even if it was Donna. The flashback scene you're describing sounds really weird. Sam is very sensitive but in the series I found him to be a pretty open guy generally, not someone who plays everything close to the vest (except of course when he wants to do something that he knows Al will tell him is a bad idea, lol). So yeah, I don't see why he wouldn't be open with his wife or why she would have to try to squeeze things out of him (and from the way the portrayal sounds in the book maybe Donna's better off moving on).

I've read a couple of Carol's short stories and liked them. Both were set around specific episodes that I like and they were written very well. I haven't read either of her books yet. From the commentary here and on the Amazon review site people seem to either love them or hate them.
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Old 12-14-2013, 12:23 AM   #147
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Maybe the Starbright Project had its own bar?
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Old 12-14-2013, 12:31 AM   #148
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Maybe the Starbright Project had its own bar?
lol. Maybe. Michelle D can confirm.
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Old 12-14-2013, 03:47 AM   #149
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I thought Sam had said he met Donna at Starbright in the original timeline. Maybe he remembered it wrong. But I don't think it's in character for either of them. I never got the sense that Sam picked women up in bars, even if it was Donna. The flashback scene you're describing sounds really weird. Sam is very sensitive but in the series I found him to be a pretty open guy generally, not someone who plays everything close to the vest (except of course when he wants to do something that he knows Al will tell him is a bad idea, lol). So yeah, I don't see why he wouldn't be open with his wife or why she would have to try to squeeze things out of him (and from the way the portrayal sounds in the book maybe Donna's better off moving on).

I've read a couple of Carol's short stories and liked them. Both were set around specific episodes that I like and they were written very well. I haven't read either of her books yet. From the commentary here and on the Amazon review site people seem to either love them or hate them.
I don't see how the change Sam made would effect where they met. If it's mentioned on the show that they met at Starbright, and I want to say it was, than this novel used inaccurate information.

And I agree that Sam is usually a pretty open person, one of the many ways in which he is Al's exact opposite. He is portrayed in the show to wear his heart on his sleeve and pretty much always speak his mind. In The Leap Back despite some of the mindset he received from Al in the simo leap causing some of it, it's clearly portrayed that his relationship with Donna is not only comfortable but quite sexual and intament. The portrayal in this novel of it being very awkward is ridiculous. Even considering that it makes some sense for the subject of past relationships to be somewhat taboo in marriages. This author just took it too far.

I have not heard of her writing short stories, where can I find these? In the fanzines?
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Old 12-14-2013, 04:13 AM   #150
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I don't see how the change Sam made would effect where they met. If it's mentioned on the show that they met at Starbright, and I want to say it was, than this novel used inaccurate information.
I agree. I think the author strayed from canon in this case.

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And I agree that Sam is usually a pretty open person, one of the many ways in which he is Al's exact opposite. He is portrayed in the show to wear his heart on his sleeve and pretty much always speak his mind. In The Leap Back despite some of the mindset he received from Al in the simo leap causing some of it, it's clearly portrayed that his relationship with Donna is not only comfortable but quite sexual and intament. The portrayal in this novel of it being very awkward is ridiculous. Even considering that it makes some sense for the subject of past relationships to be somewhat taboo in marriages. This author just took it too far.
Yeah, Sam was definitely a 'Mr. Morals' when it came to sex, and in some ways he's inherently shy, but he wasn't a schoolboy. He was a grown up, mature man who knew how to handle himself around women. We see him in enough intimate situations during the series, both in leap and at home with Donna, and he's not at all awkward.

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Originally Posted by Sam Beckett Fan View Post
I have not heard of her writing short stories, where can I find these? In the fanzines?
She definitely has stories published in the fanzines, though I'm not sure which ones, and she used to have some stories online. I have to find the link again. If I can find it and it's still active I'll link it here.
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