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Old 07-30-2014, 10:33 PM   #251
blue enigma
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You always have very well thought out viewpoints which I admire and respect Blue Enigma, this is no different and most of the time we happen to be on the same page but we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.


No problem.

The episode is flawed, and I can see where the way adoption is treated here would bother you, especially since the topic is more personal. I donít think the writers meant to disparage adoption (they just had something else in mind for what they wanted to do with this episode); thatís probably why they had Sam say the line about believing in adoption. But then Al tells Sam she spent the rest of her life looking for the child and they immediately focus the rest of the episode on Sam changing things so Billie Jean can keep the baby instead. Adoption as a good option kind of gets short shrift and Samís statement feels a little bit like lip service.
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In the original timeline she'd have been on the streets with that baby unable to feed herself let alone! Thus her regret invalid and stupid! Before Sam there was no way she could have supported that baby.

Well, she feels the way she feels. Even if in the original history she knew that putting the baby up for adoption was the best, likely only option, it doesnít mean it wasnít heartbreaking for her.

You mentioned Juno in another comment, which is a good movie, and I agree was very positive about both adoption and single motherhood. But in the case of Juno she knew without a doubt that she did not want to raise the child, she wasnít ready to raise a child, and she never looked back. The baby got a nice home with a mother who really wanted a child and Juno didnít have regrets. There are plenty of women who like Juno have no regrets once theyíve given the baby up, but there are also plenty of women who feel a great loss. So I donít see Billie Jeanís regret as invalid or stupid; itís the way she feels after making a difficult and heartbreaking decision.

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It still wasn't very fair to the father and the new wife, the way they were kind of coaxed into being that support.
Though apparently they'd come around to agreeing to support her it still wasn't their responsibility to be obligated to. It was asking them to fix her problem.
Yes and no. I agree it can be seen as an imposition and a lot to ask. But giving her support doesnít have to mean theyíre fixing her problem. That support could just be enough of a helping hand so she help herself. She still may have been expected to work hard and get herself together so she could take full responsibility for her child.
It would've been extremely cruel for the father to allow his child and grandchild to starve in the street. Not that this hasn't happened a lot. But it's pretty crappy.
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Old 07-31-2014, 02:29 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by blue_enigma
Well, she feels the way she feels. Even if in the original history she knew that putting the baby up for adoption was the best, likely only option, it doesn’t mean it wasn’t heartbreaking for her.
You mentioned Juno in another comment, which is a good movie, and I agree was very positive about both adoption and single motherhood. But in the case of Juno she knew without a doubt that she did not want to raise the child, she wasn’t ready to raise a child, and she never looked back. The baby got a nice home with a mother who really wanted a child and Juno didn’t have regrets. There are plenty of women who like Juno have no regrets once they’ve given the baby up, but there are also plenty of women who feel a great loss. So I don’t see Billie Jean’s regret as invalid or stupid; it’s the way she feels after making a difficult and heartbreaking decision.
That's my point. Just because Billy Jean had regrets doesn't mean adoption wasn't the proper choice to ensure the baby's well being. The fact that she was implied to regret her decision after she gave up the child says that she didn't think it through. If she didn't think through what it meant to lose the baby than she didn't think of what it meant to raise it either. Without anyone on her side she probably would have ended up regretting keeping that child as well.

Juno was never meant to be that kind of comparison just a better example of a teen pregnancy story. You're right as a comparison it would have been invalid because Juno had felt no connection to her child and we are not told how Billy Jean felt. It could actually go either way. In Juno, Jennifer Garner's character said:
"A mother becomes a mother when she becomes pregnant, a father becomes a father when he sees his baby."
Well that's not always true, sometimes it takes seeing and holding the baby to for a mother to become a mother too. The film Waitress is a perfect example of this.

Perhaps I used the wrong words, my apologies. The adult Billy Jean with those regrets is illogical because she couldn't have kept that baby, she couldn't have supported it. The original circumstances wouldn't have allowed it proper care. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to say that I don't condone her feelings. It's certainly not entirely her fault since open adoption didn't exist in the 50's which would have been the ideal outcome because everyone would have won. The baby would be put in a proper home with people who were able to give it what it needs and Billy Jean would still be allowed a relationship with it (well you know if the adoptive parents were willing to cooperate).

Now I could see if she had sought out her child to find out if it was alright, but to regret not keeping it, no.

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It would've been extremely cruel for the father to allow his child and grandchild to starve in the street.
Honestly if the young black girl hadn't opened his eyes I wouldn't have put it past him considering how he felt about Billy Jean getting knocked up in the first place. He'd already kicked her out, if not for that woman she would have been on the streets even before that baby came. Horribly cruel yeah but a completely realistic possibility. If life always had happy endings there would be no Quantum Leap series because the concept of a man who fixes life's wrongs wouldn't exist.

What's also cruel is to allow a mother to raise a child who couldn't provide for it.
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Old 07-31-2014, 07:28 PM   #253
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Honestly if the young black girl hadn't opened his eyes I wouldn't have put it past him considering how he felt about Billy Jean getting knocked up in the first place. He'd already kicked her out, if not for that woman she would have been on the streets even before that baby came. Horribly cruel yeah but a completely realistic possibility.
Oh, definitely a realistic possibility. He was treating his own daughter badly because of his prejudices and narrow views, which is something that happens all the time to kids, over various things not just teen pregnancy.
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Old 07-31-2014, 08:07 PM   #254
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On another subject (since I think at this point I'd just be repeating myself with the Billy Jean discussion), last night I streamed American Beauty. Earlier last evening I noticed it on TV so I turned it on remembering that Scott had a small role. My mother however changed the channel on me but my interest had been sparked so I streamed it as my last act of the night.

His role is small and insignificant but well done, he's basically a neighbor of the main character's in a homosexual relationship. What was interesting about it was the contrast between his and his partner's enjoyment of life and the main characters totally screwed up marriage and daughter.

The film itself is pretty dark and kinda sick but he was worth watching it for. I thought he and his partner were a cute couple, I'd have liked to see more of them.

Later tonight I'll also be checking out the HBO series 'Looking' which I was told about earlier today. Scott has had a reoccurring guest role in over half the 8 episode first season and is supposedly signed on to appear in the second as well. Judging by a screenshot the person showed me, apparently this is another gay role.

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Old 08-07-2014, 12:57 AM   #255
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I thought of something today.

We had come to the conclusion that the attempts made to alter a significant moment in history (i.e. stopping the shooting down of the U2) in order to prove the success of the Quantum Leap experiment were essentially pointless - unless there's a way for the committee members to experience both timelines, there's no way that even if history was changed, they would actually notice it.

But it actually IS possible to prove, in more than one way...

1. Using a time capsule - have Sam put important documentation or a recording of himself explaining the project, bury it but let Al know where it is, then Al take the committee members to the site and dig it up.

2. Have Sam write a letter (or record himself discussing the project), send it to the post office, and tell them to deliver it to the committee on the exact moment that they are sitting discussing the funding of the project.

I'm sure there are other ways it could be done as well. Obviously the key is to make sure that what Sam wants them to know is able to reach the committee in their time without it having been tampered with or the possibility of it being fabricated
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Old 08-07-2014, 02:20 AM   #256
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I thought of something today.

We had come to the conclusion that the attempts made to alter a significant moment in history (i.e. stopping the shooting down of the U2) in order to prove the success of the Quantum Leap experiment were essentially pointless - unless there's a way for the committee members to experience both timelines, there's no way that even if history was changed, they would actually notice it.

But it actually IS possible to prove, in more than one way...

1. Using a time capsule - have Sam put important documentation or a recording of himself explaining the project, bury it but let Al know where it is, then Al take the committee members to the site and dig it up.

2. Have Sam write a letter (or record himself discussing the project), send it to the post office, and tell them to deliver it to the committee on the exact moment that they are sitting discussing the funding of the project.

I'm sure there are other ways it could be done as well. Obviously the key is to make sure that what Sam wants them to know is able to reach the committee in their time without it having been tampered with or the possibility of it being fabricated
The time capsule isn't convincing, Al would have no way of proving that he didn't create and bury it himself.
A letter could work, depending on how difficult it is to get a hold of stamps from the 50's, 60's, 70's or 80's it may not be as easy to fabricate.

Back to the Future Part III has come to mind and has me feeling like if not for the aura a photograph that would show up in a newspaper or archive would be the best method. Remember the photo Marty found of Doc next to the clock taken where he'd gotten stuck in the 1800's?
Unfortunately because the aura of the leapee masks Sam that is not an option.
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Old 08-07-2014, 02:48 AM   #257
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The time capsule isn't convincing, Al would have no way of proving that he didn't create and bury it himself.
A letter could work, depending on how difficult it is to get a hold of stamps from the 50's, 60's, 70's or 80's it may not be as easy to fabricate.

Back to the Future Part III has come to mind and has me feeling like if not for the aura a photograph that would show up in a newspaper or archive would be the best method. Remember the photo Marty found of Doc next to the clock taken where he'd gotten stuck in the 1800's?
Unfortunately because the aura of the leapee masks Sam that is not an option.
Well considering that at the time, the experiment had only happened a year earlier, I think a time capsule would be convincing if it was in a place that clearly hadn't been dug up any time recently.

But you're right, it would also depend on the documentation itself. Photos are out of the question, but a tape or video recording of Sam telling future events and talking about the project itself could be convincing.
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Old 08-07-2014, 12:37 PM   #258
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Catching up again...I had some computer trouble. Stupid computers. The time capsule idea is an interesting one but as pointed out there might be a problem proving the information was actually from Sam. They did a letter from the past sort of thing to get the Imaging Chamber to open in The Leap Back, but there wouldn't have really been any reason to doubt where it came from in that case.

Back to the different themes of some of the episodes i.e. adoption and so on...I think part of the point of QL besides keeping the audience wondering where Sam would end up next was to put different ideas out there and let the people watching the show make up their own minds. I don't think they necessarily took sides on the different issues or were trying to promote the ideas in the show. I think they were more concerned about giving people something to think about, and they did.
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Old 08-07-2014, 03:30 PM   #259
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Back to the different themes of some of the episodes i.e. adoption and so on...I think part of the point of QL besides keeping the audience wondering where Sam would end up next was to put different ideas out there and let the people watching the show make up their own minds. I don't think they necessarily took sides on the different issues or were trying to promote the ideas in the show. I think they were more concerned about giving people something to think about, and they did.
Clever take.
I'd never considered that the negative portrayals of 8 1/2 Months could have in fact been intended as something of a reverse psychology lesson. In later episodes however they did show consideration for the possibility of coming off as negative.
They'd intended to set Running For Honor in a high school but changed it to the Navel Academy when it had been brought to their attention that the leading influence of teenage suicides was television featuring them. (Source: Another Time, Another Place)
Then for Trilogy pt. 2 Scott was professionally coached to portray Will Kinman's stutter in a non-offensive manner.
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Old 08-08-2014, 10:50 PM   #260
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My apologies for double posting but I was at my pintrest for the first time in a while and completely forgot I had this pinned to my Quantum Leap board!

http://raad.wordpress.com/2008/04/19...tum-leap-fans/

There doesn't seem to be a date for when this was posted but a commenter said there is also a Quantum Leap restaurant! Now I want to go to NYC even more than I already have for years!
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Old 08-08-2014, 10:53 PM   #261
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Where is this restaurant? HAHAHA
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Old 08-08-2014, 11:54 PM   #262
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No idea unfortunately! Don't even know the name! XD
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Old 08-09-2014, 08:32 PM   #263
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My apologies for double posting but I was at my pintrest for the first time in a while and completely forgot I had this pinned to my Quantum Leap board!

http://raad.wordpress.com/2008/04/19...tum-leap-fans/

There doesn't seem to be a date for when this was posted but a commenter said there is also a Quantum Leap restaurant! Now I want to go to NYC even more than I already have for years!
Quantum Leap restaurant is on Thompson Street, near NYU. It's not far from where I live.

The "Sam Beckett Come Home" sign is actually part of a 2007 art exhibit inspired by Quantum Leap, by Heman Chong. Here's the link to the information about that project:

http://www.hemanchong.com/projects/2...07samhome.html

The outdoor sign remains.
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Old 08-09-2014, 09:28 PM   #264
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Oh I envy you Blue! Have you been to the restaurant? What's it like?


On another subject, something has come to mind.
In the Vietnam thread we discussed how we are all on team "Sam can control his leaping" and it hit me. Does this mean that he could if desired will himself beyond his lifetime? Say like what happened with The Leap Between the States? Was it really his ancestor's DNA which made that leap possible?
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Old 08-09-2014, 09:39 PM   #265
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Have you been to the restaurant? What's it like?
It's a vegetarian restaurant, and is good. There used to be one closer to me that closed. I haven't eaten at the Thompson Street location.

Here's a link to their menu: http://tinyurl.com/3n7snw2

The restaurant is just called Quantum Leap. It's not specifically themed on the show (though the owners may very well have had the show in mind when they named it).

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On another subject, something has come to mind.
In the Vietnam thread we discussed how we are all on team "Sam can control his leaping" and it hit me. Does this mean that he could if desired will himself beyond his lifetime? Say like what happened with The Leap Between the States? Was it really his ancestor's DNA which made that leap possible?
The odds of Sam's ancestor's DNA being so identical to his is actually very very slim, if it's even possible. So my guess is that he could will himself beyond his own lifetime, but because he was so certain that quantum leaping worked only within his lifetime he needed to convince himself, and give himself a reason that he could possibly leap outside of those parameters. So, when he leaped into 1945 to save Al, he convinced himself that he could do it because part of him was Al, but it may have had nothing at all to do with that. He might have willed himself to leap that far back anyway by virtue of wanting to save his friend.
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Old 08-09-2014, 10:20 PM   #266
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Actually I did some research a bit ago and on average we share 12.3% of our DNA with our great grandparents and even 3% with our Great Great Grandparents.

Now the chance of PQL specifically being able to pick out Captain John Beckett in Sam's DNA probably IS slim to none because those average numbers are more likely less since DNA swapping in recombination is completely random. So we can get more of one set of parents or great grandparents than another.

I agree with the notion of the 1945 leap, it's probable that this was another case of what happened when he'd leaped to Vietnam.
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Old 08-10-2014, 07:26 AM   #267
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The question is though, WHY would he will himself to the 1800s - it's a really dangerous time and it was nearly impossible for Al to find him. It would just make Sam's life more difficult...
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Old 08-10-2014, 02:41 PM   #268
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True, that is a question that I'd kept in mind but can not answer.
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Old 08-13-2014, 02:47 PM   #269
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I really enjoyed the show and I get a kick out of watching the DVD's however, the one episode that I really have problems with is "The Leap Between The States". I guess the episode is okay , its just that it kinda discards the shows "bible" in regard to Sam leaping during his own lifetime. To go back to the Civil War was kinda "over the top" and brought the show close to "jumping the shark".
Sure there was some BS explanation as to why but I'm surprised at Donald Bellasario green lighted this script.
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Old 08-13-2014, 09:39 PM   #270
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Here"s one for the ages:
Sci Fi has always shown us the future. Quantum Leap does so with the hand link. This object and its operation reminds me of our smart phones and the internet. How Ziggy researches (Google) and is able to provide up to date info on the people Sam interacts with. Interesting tidbit.
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Old 08-14-2014, 11:47 PM   #271
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Here's something to ponder:

Do you think "Devil Al" is actually the Devil? Or do you think he's one of Satan's minions sent to do his dirty work? Or even an evil leaper?
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Old 08-15-2014, 02:39 AM   #272
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He specifically introduced himself as the devil.
"Yin and yang, good and bad, God..."
"the devil."
"In the flesh so to speak."

Though it's my head canon that he is behind or involved with the evil project the way God is involved with Sam's journey.
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Old 08-15-2014, 02:59 AM   #273
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Not necessarily, by saying "The Devil" he could have meant he was the Devil's representative...
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Old 08-15-2014, 04:19 AM   #274
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Not necessarily, by saying "The Devil" he could have meant he was the Devil's representative...
Except that Sam said 'the devil' and then he confirmed it by saying "in the flesh so to speak."
The 'so to speak' was referring to the fact that the devil is a divine being and thus doesn't technically have flesh, he'd only been mimicking it with the Al guise. Or rather that is how I read it.

HOnestly I don't believe the devil has "representatives". The devil usually makes personal appearances in works of fiction in which he plays a role.
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Old 08-15-2014, 05:13 AM   #275
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Except that Sam said 'the devil' and then he confirmed it by saying "in the flesh so to speak."
The 'so to speak' was referring to the fact that the devil is a divine being and thus doesn't technically have flesh, he'd only been mimicking it with the Al guise. Or rather that is how I read it.

HOnestly I don't believe the devil has "representatives". The devil usually makes personal appearances in works of fiction in which he plays a role.
You've never heard of demons?
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