Old 08-25-2014, 01:24 AM   #1
TylerMeans
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I would like to discuss the episodes when Sam's Leapee was not a "White Male". There are several where Sam is a woman, minority, senior citizen, teen ager. Of these which are your favorites? Least favorites? why?

Lets start the discussion on SAM AS A WOMAN
My favorite episode: RAPED
This is an emotional charged subject and the episode is well written and full of drama. The leaped is sympathetic, the episode has strong characters, and a real despicable villain, the rapist.

Least Favorite: LIBERATION
I do not hate this episode, I just had to pick one for least favorite and this one fits the bill.

I loved seeing Sam as a woman. Since his first time, "WHAT PRICE GLORIA" we have been treated to some of the best episodes of the series: ANOTHER MOTHER, SONG FOR THE SOUL.
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Old 08-25-2014, 03:52 PM   #2
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I would like to discuss the episodes when Sam's Leapee was not a "White Male". There are several where Sam is a woman, minority, senior citizen, teen ager. Of these which are your favorites? Least favorites? why?

Lets start the discussion on SAM AS A WOMAN
My favorite episode: RAPED
This is an emotional charged subject and the episode is well written and full of drama. The leaped is sympathetic, the episode has strong characters, and a real despicable villain, the rapist.

Least Favorite: LIBERATION
I do not hate this episode, I just had to pick one for least favorite and this one fits the bill.

I loved seeing Sam as a woman. Since his first time, "WHAT PRICE GLORIA" we have been treated to some of the best episodes of the series: ANOTHER MOTHER, SONG FOR THE SOUL.
Haha, I actually really dislike LIBERATION. I do like that they emphasized that it was having the choice that was important. Some women want to work, some don't want to - they want to stay home and be with their kids. Both are valid choices and neither should be denigrated. But the rest of it, not so much, and I really really hate that they felt the need to muck up the issue with the abusive backstory.

Favorite: ANOTHER MOTHER

Almost every time Sam leaped into anyone who wasn't a white (cis) male, he announced it in some way and made a big deal out of it. This is one episode where for once he doesn't do that. He says "Oh boy, I'm a mommy", emphasizing and defining the role of being a mommy and everything that goes along with it (and the domestic disaster he leaped into, lol) rather than being a woman. And he spends the entire episode just wearing the dress and the earrings and the shoes. There's never a complaint about it, no ridiculous scenes played for laughs where he trips in the heels or whatever. He just assumes the role. It's great. And of course Al is adorable with Teresa, as he always is with kids, so that also makes this episode a favorite.
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Old 08-25-2014, 06:58 PM   #3
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Firstly I'd like to say that I wouldn't call the types of leapees you listed as "out of the norm". Regardless of gender, race, religion, sexual orientation etc. we are all human beings. We are one.

I'd also like to point out that with the exception of Darlene and Cherie, pretty much all of the female leapees weren't exactly attractive. In the cases of Linda Bruckner and Katie McBane that's more acceptable as the roles of a middle aged mother and a raped teenage girl are not appropriate to glamorize but bestie and I had the biggest issue with this in the case of Samantha Stormer. She was portrayed as being hit on by every guy she bypassed including Al which means she needed to be attractive but her reflections shots didn't make that believable. Sorry but she kinda had man arms/hands in one and in another they might as well have just put Scott in a wig! Though the reflection of her in Shock Theater actually ended up being pretty.

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Haha, I actually really dislike LIBERATION. I do like that they emphasized that it was having the choice that was important. Some women want to work, some don't want to - they want to stay home and be with their kids. Both are valid choices and neither should be denigrated. But the rest of it, not so much, and I really really hate that they felt the need to muck up the issue with the abusive backstory.
Agreed, the focus issue of Liberation was smart and well intentioned but writing the character who ran the movement an abusive backstory gave it the wrong image, one of vengeance rather than justice. What you ended up seeing was a woman who was emotionally unstable rather than one trying to make a difference.
The expression on Sam at the ending moment when the husband went to kiss him was priceless however. XD

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Favorite: ANOTHER MOTHER

Almost every time Sam leaped into anyone who wasn't a white (cis) male, he announced it in some way and made a big deal out of it. This is one episode where for once he doesn't do that. He says "Oh boy, I'm a mommy", emphasizing and defining the role of being a mommy and everything that goes along with it (and the domestic disaster he leaped into, lol) rather than being a woman. And he spends the entire episode just wearing the dress and the earrings and the shoes. There's never a complaint about it, no ridiculous scenes played for laughs where he trips in the heels or whatever. He just assumes the role. It's great. And of course Al is adorable with Teresa, as he always is with kids, so that also makes this episode a favorite.
He did as Al pointed out, nearly hyperventilate over the mother's schedule which was amusing. In that same scene he also questioned why the mother was the leapee but overall you're right this was one of few where a female leapee was kept quite subtle and an adorable episode. The kidnappers are poorly written and underdeveloped but Teresa is the reason to watch in my opinion.

I'd say an unusual leap that take the top is The Wrong Stuff. Scott spending the entire episode mostly naked is reason enough alone (hehe yum! ) but the animal rights issue was well represented and I just adored Cory and how Sam was really sweet on her near the end. Scott as I heard as really enjoyed working with Cory.
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Old 08-25-2014, 07:29 PM   #4
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Firstly I'd like to say that I wouldn't call the types of leapees you listed as "out of the norm". Regardless of gender, race, religion, sexual orientation etc. we are all human beings. We are one.


Yeah, when I first saw the title of the thread I thought it was going to be about supernatural leaps.

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Agreed, the focus issue of Liberation was smart and well intentioned but writing the character who ran the movement an abusive backstory gave it the wrong image, one of vengeance rather than justice. What you ended up seeing was a woman who was emotionally unstable rather than one trying to make a difference.
Exactly. And not just QL, in general, abusive backstories are used way too much for this purpose in a lot of fiction.

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The expression on Sam at the ending moment when the husband went to kiss him was priceless however.
I know this scene was supposed to be funny. But here's the thing. There were enough leaps where Sam merged with a male leapee and felt sexual attraction and/or romantic love for the male leapee's female love interest. But that never happened when Sam leaped into a woman, where he picked up the leapee's feelings for her male love interest. Of course the real life explanation is that it was the late 1980s/early 1990s, a time when they couldn't show two men kissing on TV without getting backlash and they had to make it very very clear that Sam was absolutely no-room-for-doubt straight. Playing a scene like this for laughs was the only way they were willing to do it. Even in Running for Honor Sam as Tommy is just shown as not being at all sexually interested in Tommy's girlfriend (and through dialogue we get that Tommy hasn't been showing interest either), not as being attracted to men. It bothers me somewhat even though I understand why they needed to do this scene that way. This was the leapee's husband who we're meant to assume she still loves and with whom she wants to salvage her relationship. In that context that scene is kind of offensive.

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The kidnappers are poorly written and underdeveloped but Teresa is the reason to watch in my opinion.
Agreed. The kidnappers are so one-dimensional and just random in their behavior - they were completely indiscriminate about who they kidnapped (boys, girls, teenagers, kids - it didn't matter, they just had to kidnap someone). But there was so much that was good about the episode that I can mostly overlook them.
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Old 08-25-2014, 09:56 PM   #5
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I loved it when Sam leapt into women; his reaction when he discovered he'd leapt into a female was always funny. The episodes mentioned all had their moments. My favorite scene in What Price Gloria was when Sam beat the crud out of the creepy boss, and Al was very funny. The scenes with Teresa in Another Mother were my favorite too. And when he beat up the creep in Raped...I cheered. "Al, I think I know why I'm here." And "Great Balls of Fire" in Miss Deep South was my favorite scene in that episode. Scott and Dean were very funny in the "Cuanta La Gusta" scene too. I liked the idea of him being in a female singing group in Song for the Soul. I admire the writers for being open-minded enough to not have Sam leap into men all the time. The direction some of the stories took or character development may have been less than ideal or inconsistent in some cases, but at least they took the time to address the issues in the episodes.

And yes, Sam running around nearly naked in The Wrong Stuff is reason enough to watch that episode.
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Old 08-25-2014, 10:18 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by blue_enigma
Yeah, when I first saw the title of the thread I thought it was going to be about supernatural leaps.
As did I.

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I know this scene was supposed to be funny. But here's the thing. There were enough leaps where Sam merged with a male leapee and felt sexual attraction and/or romantic love for the male leapee's female love interest. But that never happened when Sam leaped into a woman, where he picked up the leapee's feelings for her male love interest. Of course the real life explanation is that it was the late 1980s/early 1990s, a time when they couldn't show two men kissing on TV without getting backlash and they had to make it very very clear that Sam was absolutely no-room-for-doubt straight. Playing a scene like this for laughs was the only way they were willing to do it. Even in Running for Honor Sam as Tommy is just shown as not being at all sexually interested in Tommy's girlfriend (and through dialogue we get that Tommy hasn't been showing interest either), not as being attracted to men. It bothers me somewhat even though I understand why they needed to do this scene that way. This was the leapee's husband who we're meant to assume she still loves and with whom she wants to salvage her relationship. In that context that scene is kind of offensive.
Hmmm, that's not something that had crossed my mind but a valid take.
Though with Abigail as the exception I don't believe it was mind merging that accounted for his falling for the females in his leaps. Especially not the ones which happened before the concept was introduced such as Honeymoon Express.

As for Running for Honor, we find out from the ending moment that they were actually making a point of keeping it unclear whether or not Tommy was homosexual.
While it was revealed that Tommy never touched the young lady the fact that she's the Admiral's daughter allows other explanations. I assume it has the same ethic as not sleeping with your boss or possibly even your boss's son/daughter even though he was in the Admiral's favor before he was accused of being homosexual. So Tommy could have just had morals like Sam's or one doesn't have to be homosexual to show disinterest in someone of the opposite sex.
(btw Al's booing when Sam kissed her cheek is one of those moments that cracked me up hard XD)
One could argue that are several hints of possible mind merging here actually, the hands on the hips and the crossing of the legs that Al accused of being homosexual male gestures could have been Tommy though we've seen Sam do those things before. He also seems to disapprove of Sam choosing to make tea instead of coffee but we know Sam to prefer tea from two episodes; Catch a Falling Star and Temptation Eyes. So personally I don't think it's mind merging but to each their own...

Returning to Liberation, it's understandable that Sam would be uncomfortable with that kiss. It's a very intament and personal action that is against his sexual preference but you're not wrong, for the objective of that portion of the leap it was unethical as not only were these two people married but he needed to keep it that way regardless of the fact that it was Sam's actions which jeopardized their marriage in the first place. That actually speaks even more for the necessity of that kiss.
As you pointed out though the explanation is the black and white one of it being inappropriate for television in that time period. So it's not entirely the fault of the show but of society for being so closed minded. It still today hasn't improved much.

Interestingly Scott went on to play a couple of homosexual roles outside of Quantum Leap. See my last post in Lightning McQueenie's 'Interesting Observations' thread.
Speaking of which I still need to continue watching Looking, I haven't even gotten to his role yet.

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Agreed. The kidnappers are so one-dimensional and just random in their behavior - they were completely indiscriminate about who they kidnapped (boys, girls, teenagers, kids - it didn't matter, they just had to kidnap someone)
Exactly. I'm an expert on sexual predators at least in the fictional world as I watch a lot of crime shows such as SVU, Without a Trace, and Criminal Minds. They always have a type but these guys went from scouting two by appearances ten-twelve year olds of both genders to a fifteen year old boy and then made a move on a middle aged mother (Sam). They were all over the place but yeah it can be forgiven because Teresa is the reason to watch in my opinion.
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Old 08-25-2014, 10:36 PM   #7
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As for Running for Honor, we find out from the ending moment that they were actually making a point of keeping it unclear whether or not Tommy was homosexual.
Right, and I'm not sure I like that they did that. It feels a little bit like they wanted to try to deal with the issue without completely committing to it.

Though I agree with you that the fact that she was the Admiral's daughter would deter him either way.

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One could argue that are several hints of possible mind merging here actually, the hands on the hips and the crossing of the legs that Al accused of being homosexual male gestures could have been Tommy though we've seen Sam do those things before.
Those are very stereotypical though, so if that's how the show was intending to hint at it, there were better ways to do it. Again, I realize that a lot of this had to do with when the show aired, and they had to be very careful about presenting certain things then. The producers of the show were courageous in many of the things they did tackle and I do appreciate that. I just notice the things that fall short too.

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Returning to Liberation, it's understandable that Sam would be uncomfortable with that kiss. It's a very intament and personal action that is against his sexual preference but you're not wrong, for the objective of that portion of the leap it was unethical as not only were these two people married but he needed to keep it that way regardless of the fact that it was Sam's actions which jeopardized their marriage in the first place. That actually speaks even more for the necessity of that kiss. As you pointed out though the explanation is the black and white one of it being inappropriate for television in that time period. So it's not entirely the fault of the show but of society for being so closed minded. It still today hasn't improved much.
It's understandable, but looking at all the different leapees Sam mind-merged with it seems pretty selective.

And even if Sam hadn't been the one to jeopardize the marriage, part of his job in this leap was to make sure the marriage was saved. He needed to do his job, and if that meant kissing the leapee's husband he needed to do it like he meant it.

But yeah, the real life explanation is they would've gotten backlash if they'd played it any other way than for laughs. And you're right, it's not much better today, at least on network television. Stuff written for paid cable channels can push the envelope more ('Looking' is a good example and it is worth watching for Scott Bakula - he's really great in it).
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Old 08-25-2014, 11:00 PM   #8
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On the subject of female leaps, we should remember that women make up more than half the population.

In total, Sam leapt into the lives of women nine times:

- Samantha Stormer (What Price Gloria)
- Linda Bruckner (Another Mother)
- Darlene Monte (Miss Deep South)
- Billie-Jean Crockett (8 + 1/2 Months)
- Katie McBain (Raped)
- Cheree (A Song for the Soul)
- Margaret Sanders (Liberation)
- Dr Ruth Westheimer (Dr Ruth)
- Liz Tate (Revenge of the Evil Leaper)

In a 97 episode run, this meant that the proportion of leaps which were female was 11.34%, lower than Sam's possibility of return after he modified the retrieval program. Why do you think this proportion was so low, when really it should have been at least half (considering the number of women in the world)?
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Old 08-25-2014, 11:11 PM   #9
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In a 97 episode run, this meant that the proportion of leaps which were female was 11.34%, lower than Sam's possibility of return after he modified the retrieval program. Why do you think this proportion was so low, when really it should have been at least half (considering the number of women in the world)?
That's a good question. I think part of the reason unfortunately is that most of the time there was a specific message they were trying to deliver when Sam leaped into a woman (same thing when Sam leaped into anyone who wasn't white). Another Mother was one of the exceptions. Song for the Soul was another.
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Old 08-25-2014, 11:13 PM   #10
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Those are very stereotypical though, so if that's how the show was intending to hint at it, there were better ways to do it. Again, I realize that a lot of this had to do with when the show aired, and they had to be very careful about presenting certain things then. The producers of the show were courageous in many of the things they did tackle and I do appreciate that. I just notice the things that fall short too.
Right, what happened there was simply Al being prejudice. My guess was that they wanted to show someone in the present time still feeling that homosexuality is wrong.

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It's understandable, but looking at all the different leapees Sam mind-merged with it seems pretty selective.
You seem to be forgetting that the mind merging concept is not random nor is it related to love. It's caused by trauma (emotional or physical) or mental instability. Though I have no idea what Will Kinman's excuse was there were a lot of unrealistic and senseless elements throughout Trilogy. Not to mention season five directly broke every rule at some point.
Would it have been interesting here? Absolutely but it just wouldn't have fit with the rules of the concept.

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But yeah, the real life explanation is they would've gotten backlash if they'd played it any other way than for laughs.
Not to mention season five was already in enough trouble without taking such risks.
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Old 08-25-2014, 11:15 PM   #11
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In a 97 episode run, this meant that the proportion of leaps which were female was 11.34%, lower than Sam's possibility of return after he modified the retrieval program.
I'll honestly say that percents were one of my weakest points in Math but the chance of the modified retrieval program being successful was 9.6%, so isn't that the lower number?

You're right though there wasn't a diverse enough selection in leapees. We never had a single Asian, Indian (India Indian), Arabian, South American, Persian or Polish leapee. Those are just some of the major cultures we were deprived of. That's one reason the novel Pulitzer is wonderful, there we a Chinese leapee.
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Old 08-25-2014, 11:23 PM   #12
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You seem to be forgetting that the mind merging concept is not random nor is it related to love. It's caused by trauma (emotional or physical) or mental instability. Though I have no idea what Will Kinman's excuse was there were a lot of unrealistic and senseless elements throughout Trilogy. Not to mention season five directly broke every rule at some point.
I'm not necessarily suggesting that it was related to love, just that when Sam did mind merge he often had feelings for the person the leapee loved, such as in the case of all the men in Abigail's life. Also, it wasn't necessarily always caused by trauma or mental instability. There were times when it was, such as in Evil Leaper II and Dreams, but not always. In Liberation there's a scene where Sam gets kind of obsessive about the mushrooms he's making for the party - that seemed like Sam absorbing some of his host's concerns to me.

Sometimes it was unclear. Sam's feelings for Diane McBride for example could've been his own, or they could've been her husband's feelings bleeding over into him, or it could've been a little bit of both.
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Old 08-26-2014, 12:59 AM   #13
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I'm not necessarily suggesting that it was related to love, just that when Sam did mind merge he often had feelings for the person the leapee loved, such as in the case of all the men in Abigail's life. Also, it wasn't necessarily always caused by trauma or mental instability. There were times when it was, such as in Evil Leaper II and Dreams, but not always.
Name me a time when it wasn't because I'm at a loss. If you're gonna name Billy Jean and Larry Statton, I disagree. That was psychical trauma, stress on the body.

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In Liberation there's a scene where Sam gets kind of obsessive about the mushrooms he's making for the party - that seemed like Sam absorbing some of his host's concerns to me.
Or a concern that it was a setback to his success in keeping the marriage in tact.

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Sometimes it was unclear. Sam's feelings for Diane McBride for example could've been his own, or they could've been her husband's feelings bleeding over into him, or it could've been a little bit of both.
It is a slight possibility but I personally disagree. It was always pretty clear when he was mind merging.
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Old 08-26-2014, 01:07 AM   #14
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You seem to be forgetting that the mind merging concept is not random nor is it related to love. It's caused by trauma (emotional or physical) or mental instability. Though I have no idea what Will Kinman's excuse was there were a lot of unrealistic and senseless elements throughout Trilogy. Not to mention season five directly broke every rule at some point.
Would it have been interesting here? Absolutely but it just wouldn't have fit with the rules of the concept.
That's not true, in just about every episode, Sam plays the character a little differently, suggesting that he always absorbs a little bit of the leapee.


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I'll honestly say that percents were one of my weakest points in Math but the chance of the modified retrieval program being successful was 9.6%, so isn't that the lower number?
The chance of the modified retrieval program being successful was 12%...

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Name me a time when it wasn't because I'm at a loss. If you're gonna name Billy Jean and Larry Statton, I disagree. That was psychical trauma, stress on the body.
What about in "Private Dancer" where he knew how to dance like a stripper despite never learning how? He had a "What the Hell am I doing?" look on his face at the time...

I suggest you listen to all of the Quantum Leap Podcast, in each episode they make note of where it seems like Sam has absorbed a bit of the leapee.
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Old 08-26-2014, 01:08 AM   #15
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Name me a time when it wasn't because I'm at a loss. If you're gonna name Billy Jean and Larry Statton, I disagree. That was psychical trauma, stress on the body.
Technically leaping was physical stress and trauma on the body.

And I did name a time. In Liberation it wasn't just about Sam being worried about the leap. It was a whole other level of him obsessing about the stuffed mushrooms.

Dr. Ruth was another instance. He started speaking like her.

There was always some bleed over from the leapee into Sam. They just didn't start making a big deal out of it until episodes like 'Dreams'.

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That's not true, in just about every episode, Sam plays the character a little differently, suggesting that he always absorbs a little bit of the leapee.
And I see that while I was commenting Lightning McQueenie chimed in with some good examples and a better worded explanation.
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Old 08-26-2014, 01:19 AM   #16
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That's not true, in just about every episode, Sam plays the character a little differently, suggesting that he always absorbs a little bit of the leapee.
That doesn't suggest anything at all, Sam has to convince the people around him that he is who he's replaced and they are all different people.
Interesting that you should suggest that he absorbs a bit of every leapee; one of the novels uses that theory but I can not recall which one. Possibly Loch Ness Leap. The author for sure explores some insane theories in that book.

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What about in "Private Dancer" where he knew how to dance like a stripper despite never learning how? He had a "What the Hell am I doing?" look on his face at the time...
Haha, did you just throw my own words from that thread at me? I'm honestly amused if you did. Thank you for that catch.
Alright so there were one or two instances where it wasn't traumatic or mental instability.

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Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie
The chance of the modified retrieval program being successful was 12%...
No it wasn't and I have no idea where you're getting that number.
"How will you get back!?"
"Use the retrieval program."
"It didn't work the first time you leaped."
"I've updated it."
"Ziggy, what are the chances of retrieving Dr. Beckett?"
"9.6%"


- The Leap Back

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Originally Posted by blue_enigma
Technically leaping was physical stress and trauma on the body.
Actually some don't see it as his body doing the leaping but I'm with you, I firmly believe it is and that it's more than clearly displayed throughout the series. Some fans however choose to believe that it's his soul. Ashley McConnell's novels portray this.

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Dr. Ruth was another instance. He started speaking like her.
Granted I'd forgotten about Dr. Ruth but once again season five broke all the rules, the leapee herself broke the rules. Dr. Ruth is a real life celebrity. By far the best of the famous figure leaps for the record.
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Old 08-26-2014, 11:16 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Sam Beckett Fan View Post
Actually some don't see it as his body doing the leaping but I'm with you, I firmly believe it is and that it's more than clearly displayed throughout the series. Some fans however choose to believe that it's his soul. Ashley McConnell's novels portray this.
Well, the fact that Sam conceived a child with his DNA pretty much seals the body-leaping theory. But even if you ignore Season 5 the fact that Sam could see when he leaped into a blind man backs up the body leaping theory as early as the beginning of Season 2 in my opinion, as does the fact that Sam had burn marks on his temples from the shock therapy in 'The Leap Back'. But even if you go with the soul-leaping theory leaping itself is stressful.

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Granted I'd forgotten about Dr. Ruth but once again season five broke all the rules, the leapee herself broke the rules. Dr. Ruth is a real life celebrity. By far the best of the famous figure leaps for the record.
Season 5 is still part of the canon, whether some of us dislike what they did or not. But Lightning McQueenie gave Season 3's 'Private Dancer' as a good example outside of Season 5. Also in Season 3, in 'Runaway' Sam picked up Butchie's body language (note the scene where he is standing next to the leapee's mother while she talks to her old boyfriend - he's shifting and fidgeting the way a kid that age would). It wasn't always as blatant as it was in episodes like 'Dreams'.
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Old 08-26-2014, 06:58 PM   #18
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I enjoyed Dr. Ruth a lot; it was very funny when he started talking like her, and the scenes with Dr. Ruth and Al were a riot too. It was a good episode.

As far as avoiding scenes like men kissing in Liberation, I agree with the idea that at that time there were a lot more restrictions on what was allowed on T.V. and they may have been avoiding getting into trouble by getting a laugh. Many of the leaps in and out were funny or amusing though. That wasn't the only one where Sam leapt in or out at an opportune time. I don't think they were deliberately trying to be offensive, and I don't think the idea of Sam kissing another man was the point of the story anyway. I thought the general idea behind the episode was a good one, which I think was that women should be able to have a career or choose to stay at home or participate in organizations they are interested in, and they shouldn't be hassled about that choice. Whether they fell short in the way they executed it is a matter of opinion.

As far as the theme of Running For Honor, as I've said, I don't think they necessarily were trying to say people should believe or not believe a certain way. They brought up different ideas and let the audience make up their own minds. I think Sam's line "does it really matter?" just before he leapt summed it up pretty well. I think it's commendable that they addressed topics that were considered controversial; not many shows bothered to do that.

As for episodes like Private Dancer, I don't really recall if it was established that Sam was a good dancer before that leap and just didn't remember, but I do recall that he could sing and play piano before the leaps in Piano Man and the other episodes where he did musical stuff but didn't remember he had musical talent. Haha, Scott being as talented as he is in those areas was enough reason to have episodes where he is singing, playing piano and dancing.
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Old 08-26-2014, 07:17 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by blue_engima
Well, the fact that Sam conceived a child with his DNA pretty much seals the body-leaping theory. But even if you ignore Season 5 the fact that Sam could see when he leaped into a blind man backs up the body leaping theory as early as the beginning of Season 2 in my opinion, as does the fact that Sam had burn marks on his temples from the shock therapy in 'The Leap Back'. But even if you go with the soul-leaping theory leaping itself is stressful.
You don't need to convince me, like I said I'm more than convinced that it's his body, in fact every hint you pointed out I've already done so multiple times in other threads. I was merely pointing out that a debate on the subject does exist whether we like it or not.

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Season 5 is still part of the canon, whether some of us dislike what they did or not. But Lightning McQueenie gave Season 3's 'Private Dancer' as a good example outside of Season 5. Also in Season 3, in 'Runaway' Sam picked up Butchie's body language (note the scene where he is standing next to the leapee's mother while she talks to her old boyfriend - he's shifting and fidgeting the way a kid that age would). It wasn't always as blatant as it was in episodes like 'Dreams'.
I said season five broke the rules not that it wasn't canon. I accept it's evidence but put the other seasons above it.
Honestly I don't watch Runaway much, twice in fact my whole time as a fan so I'll take your word for that one and won't argue it.

As for the Private Dancer example, yeah I'd forgotten about that in this discussion but I'd talked about that in it's thread. I go into detail over there but there would...I think logically kinda be some muscle memory merge in there which is another interesting concept.
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Old 08-26-2014, 09:49 PM   #20
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I think logically kinda be some muscle memory merge in there which is another interesting concept.
I like this idea a lot. It's a very interesting concept. In general I think it makes sense that Sam would pick up at least a little bit of the leapee's knowledge or feelings or whatever, as those would help him get the job done. So I think he would need it. And muscle memory would certainly be a part of what he would need if the leapee was in a physical vocation, like dancer or athlete or soldier, anything where he would need quick physical responses.
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Old 08-26-2014, 10:13 PM   #21
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I like this idea a lot. It's a very interesting concept. In general I think it makes sense that Sam would pick up at least a little bit of the leapee's knowledge or feelings or whatever, as those would help him get the job done. So I think he would need it. And muscle memory would certainly be a part of what he would need if the leapee was in a physical vocation, like dancer or athlete or soldier, anything where he would need quick physical responses.
Right.
As my research for the episode's thread revealed, Dancing is actually a bit of both muscle and mental memory...I think. The moves kind of become automatic after tons of practice so you don't have to think about them when you do them. Perhaps this is also how he picked up the Hora so quickly in Thou Shalt Not, something that just occurred to me.

But an excellent example of muscle memory is in The Leap Back when we see that Al had absorbed some of Sam's martial arts skills. He does a spin kick on Clifford which takes both him and Sam off guard.
"I didn't know you could do that"
"Neither did I."

Martial arts is completely muscle memory. I think playing an instrument is as well...I don't know but I think I heard that someone with amnesia they can still play their instrument and this is why.
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Old 08-26-2014, 10:18 PM   #22
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I think playing an instrument is as well...I don't know but I think I heard that someone with amnesia they can still play their instrument and this is why.
Yes, it is. Singing is as well. Professional singers get to a point where they know what different notes feel like in their muscles and can start on a pitch without having to hear it first.

Good call on 'The Leap Back'. That's a great example.
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Old 08-26-2014, 10:55 PM   #23
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Yes, it is. Singing is as well. Professional singers get to a point where they know what different notes feel like in their muscles and can start on a pitch without having to hear it first.

Good call on 'The Leap Back'. That's a great example.
Oh fascinating.
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Old 08-27-2014, 06:03 AM   #24
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That doesn't suggest anything at all, Sam has to convince the people around him that he is who he's replaced and they are all different people.
Interesting that you should suggest that he absorbs a bit of every leapee; one of the novels uses that theory but I can not recall which one. Possibly Loch Ness Leap. The author for sure explores some insane theories in that book.
Actually it is confirmed that Sam always does absorb a piece of the leapee - in Lee Harvey Oswald Sam mentions to Al how in every leap he absorbs a bit of the leapee's memories, mannerisms and perhaps even a piece of their soul. He then describes his mind merging with Oswald as Oswald not controlling his mind, more like him leading him down a path that Sam can't resist...
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Old 08-27-2014, 03:59 PM   #25
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Actually it is confirmed that Sam always does absorb a piece of the leapee - in Lee Harvey Oswald Sam mentions to Al how in every leap he absorbs a bit of the leapee's memories, mannerisms and perhaps even a piece of their soul. He then describes his mind merging with Oswald as Oswald not controlling his mind, more like him leading him down a path that Sam can't resist...
Alright I didn't remember that, I've seen LHO twice only but I'm not sure I buy either of those claims.
They hardly show him absorbing memories other than in Dreams and how could he possibly tell the difference in the case of Oswald. He freaking spoke in Oswald's accent, his tone, he had his abusive nature towards Maria, his violent tendencies. He also showed little awareness of Al's presence other than when he'd managed to grasp onto the tinniest piece of Sam Beckett deep within.
Leading him down a road he can't resist my foot. How could Sam Beckett be unable to resist hitting a woman? Shooting a man? Oswald was in control. Sam probably just didn't want to believe he was. Like how stubbornly he disagreed with his ability to control his own leaping.
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