what happened to his wife

I think that GFTW isn't who is leaping Sam around, but instead who made Donna so understanding when he went on his leaping spree.

She's like a war widow, waiting patiently for him to come back. And like so many war widows, her husband never will.

Let's not forget that it was Sam's doing that made himself married to Donna. So originally, GFTW possibly never wanted Sam to be married because of the life he was destined for. It wasn't the true reason for him to be there in "Star-Crossed," just merely a selfish attempt to change his own past on the side. So, since changing his marriage was never part of the scenario projected by Ziggy, its outcome could have had a negative effect if he wasn't necessarily supposed to change it. And unfortunately in this case, it did.

wait, wait, wait! where is it ever said that saving Al and Beth got rid of Donna agian? i am mega confused here???

Kristen and I do wonder however why they do not show her in Mirror Image when Gooshi announces that the waiting room is empty.

No no no. Sam saving Al and Beth's marriage had nothing to do with his own marriage.

In the 2nd episode "Star Crossed" Sam met up with his former fiancee and changed history so that she would marry him instead of leave him at the altair. Since this was not what Sam had been put there to do, we believe this change in timeline had a negative effect, instead of the positive effect of all the wrongs he put right.

naggindragon said:

No no no. Sam saving Al and Beth's marriage had nothing to do with his own marriage.

In the 2nd episode "Star Crossed" Sam met up with his former fiancee and changed history so that she would marry him instead of leave him at the altair. Since this was not what Sam had been put there to do, we believe this change in timeline had a negative effect, instead of the positive effect of all the wrongs he put right.

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I am so glad you said that. I have always felt like a really mean person for believing that Sam was never meant to have married Donna (which is why his "affairs" never really skeeved me out).

Sam saving Al and Beth's marriage had nothing to do with his own marriage.

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Well, kinda. I don't think she popped out of existence after MI or anything, but in my mind, in a sense, Donna and Beth switched places: Beth never gave up on Al and got him back, after the change Sam made to MIA - a change that maybe he was supposed to make the first time, but didn't, citing the Rules. Because Sam chooses to keep leaping in order to go back and fix this for Al, Donna gives up on Sam and moves on with her life (the way Beth originally had) - closing the loop on a change Sam made that he wasn't supposed to make in the first place, ignoring the Rules. It's not perfectly parallel, but it works for me as an extension of the "mirror" theme, and sheds some light, for me, as to why his love for Donna didn't weight the scales even subconsciously in favor of going home when given the chance.

Donna would never give up on Sam, i refuse to believe that! Sorry Dana i don't agree with you.

naggindraggin said:

No no no. Sam saving Al and Beth's marriage had nothing to do with his own marriage.

In the 2nd episode "Star Crossed" Sam met up with his former fiancee and changed history so that she would marry him instead of leave him at the altair. Since this was not what Sam had been put there to do, we believe this change in timeline had a negative effect, instead of the positive effect of all the wrongs he put right.

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Thanx Naggin Dragon except what Chris was saying seemed to suggest that saving Beth reversed Donna.

Sam Beckett Fan said:

Thanx Naggin Dragon except what Chris was saying seemed to suggest that saving Beth reversed Donna.

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Hm, I don't see how, but what I was trying to say is the same as what naggindraggin said.

I also agree that Sam's "affairs" didn't feel so wrong because his marriage was doomed since he made the change. I think it definitely wasn't meant to be.

I've always thought that thia particular example is a good definition of the swiss-cheese effect. As Sam changes time around him, the ripple effect allows him to forget some facts and remember others with each leap. From the pov of the Project (as it exists now) Sam has always been married to Donna. Sam couldn't remember Donna because at one point he existed in a timeline where he wasn't married. However, as Sam's memory returns to him in The Leap Back, his fluxed brain re-aligns with the current timeline.

Don Quixote said:

I've always thought that thia particular example is a good definition of the swiss-cheese effect. As Sam changes time around him, the ripple effect allows him to forget some facts and remember others with each leap. From the pov of the Project (as it exists now) Sam has always been married to Donna. Sam couldn't remember Donna because at one point he existed in a timeline where he wasn't married. However, as Sam's memory returns to him in The Leap Back, his fluxed brain re-aligns with the current timeline.

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good point, but he still ends up forgetting agian just the same. he does eventually remember that he was home, or at least i think so in LHO, but still no Donna.

I think in LHO Sam remembers that he and Al simo-leapt, but the swiss cheese effect prevents him from remembering what happened while he was back at the project.
I guess this could be the reverse of the reverse swiss cheese effect he received when he got back to the project where he couldn't remember anything about his leaps LOL!

And just a quick correction to the very first post.

It was the first episode of Season 4 where Sam and Al simo-leap.

And Sam's wife (the character at least) definitely IS the same woman who Teri Hatcher played in Star Crossed - just different people playing them (which I think was a huge mistake considering Teri Hatcher's so gorgeous and "older Donna" is such a dragon). They are both called Donna Elesee.

Real World Involvement

I've read somewhere that the Leap Home Episode was written when Don Bellasario and Deborah Pratt were not getting along. Deborah was planning the Trilogy episodes and Don threw in this little piece to mess that up for her. Whether that is true or not, I have a real problem with the whole canon scenario and Donna.

1. I don't care for the concept "Donna will wait forever, no matter what." Regardless of whether Sam "fixed" things in Star-Crossed regarding her abandonment issues, that only addressed the situation from age 20 on. She STILL had the issue that she had dealt with (original history or changed) from age 10 to 20 when she truly felt abandoned. Thus, this would STILL psychologically affect her over the many years that Sam was gone. And if he NEVER came home (as stated at the last screen of MI), I can't believe that she would continue to wait forever. I'm as romantic as the next person, but I don't see martyrdom as romantic. Sacrifice, yes. Martyrdom is just pathetic.

And let's be realistic about the Beth thing too. In the orginal history, Beth has decided not to wait because she now believes (that is the key word) that Al is never coming home. When Sam tells her that Al is coming home, she believes this "angel" and waits. But think about it...if 50 years went by...would Beth still have believed him or would she have thought that Sam was a hallucination (that is would she have gone back to the belief that Al was gone and never coming home.) The only thing that Sam gave Beth was hope within a reasonable timeframe for her to hang on to. Al came home before she could lose that hope again.

In Donna's case, I don't believe she would believe that Sam is coming home forever. There would be a time that not knowing would get to her and she would be like Beth in the orginal history. He's not coming home, move on. Even if she still loves him (didn't Beth STILL love Al when she had him declared dead?) Otherwise, Donna and Sam is an absolutely tragic story in that Sam has caused the woman who was the love of his life to stay on a string...tied to him but never really having any happiness. Yeah...that sounds like real love to me (not!). Love would be Sam being willing to sacrifice that...to let Donna go because ultimately her happiness would be more important than his "keeping her for himself."

2. When Donna makes the statement in the Leap Back (Season 3) that nothing that Sam has ever done has hurt her, it was BEFORE some of the more troubling relationships (e.g. Tamlin and Abagail). Indeed, after Abigail, Sammy Jo comes on the scene and that had to be a issue for Donna. Might she have said what she said in year three so that "Sam would come home?" Yeah. Would she have NEVER changed her mind (especially after he doesn't return)? Doubtful based on the reality of the situation. I guess if Donna was some kind of a clingy, needy person without her own sense of herself...ok...maybe she "hangs on" to someone who never returns. But I don't get from either Star-Crossed or Leap Home that Donna is that type of person. Rather, I think that at some point...Donna stops being a martyr, and chooses to address her own needs.

3. REGARDLESS of whether Sam "remembers" or not...the whole concept of adultary needs to be looked. If I have amnesia and forget that I'm married to my husband and have a relationship with someone else...then because I am STILL married, I am committing adultry. The fact that I don't realize I'm doing it is not an excuse. Would it be understandable, perhaps...but I'd STILL be committing the act. Thus...as long as Donna is married to Sam, he is committing seriel adultry whether he realizes it or not. I find that entire concept a real problem in the storyline, especially when Sam is basically a pretty morally cool dude. The sacrifice on the other side would be Donna letting Sam go, so that he is NOT committing adultry. If he DOES return...could they get back together, sure. If he never does, then it is even more important that he had true freedom and not her "oh...I'm ok with it" which again is rather pathetic.

Anyways...that's my take on it all.

Good points on all counts, except where you say Donna must have had an issue with Sammy Jo. Sammy Jo was sure that Will Kinman was her father, and this would not have changed through the rest of the series (though we don't know about after the series ended - VS plug). Unless Donna knew already that Sammy Jo was Sam's daughter, which is doubtful considering Al would never betray Sam's friendship and hurt her like that, I don't think she would have had a problem with Sammy Jo. Not to mention that she herself said "I have never felt that you have betrayed our marriage," and I don't believe that would change after the leap back either.

Donna as a co-developer of PQL

There are certain assumptions we are all making here.

I am assuming that Donna was a co-develper of PQL with Sam (after things changed after Star-Crossed.) She certainly had the physics background and having worked with Sam and Al on Starbright I believe that would have led to her being a partner with Sam. Thus...it would not really be Al's call to tell her about Sammy Jo or not. Rather, she would have known simply because of her position in the project. And I would think that there would be family resemblance as well. From my POV...Donna would have known that Sammy Jo was Sam's daughter.

Again...I can see Donna saying what she did 3 years into the leaping. But things do change. Things that I may have ademately believed 3 years into my marriage...I have a different take now...25 years later. Doesn't mean I don't love my husband as much or even more than I did then...but things do change. I believe the same can be said for Donna. Thus, I would see things that Sam does futher into the leaping hurting her. That is just human nature. (Again...unless Donna is into martrydom...and I just see that as pathethic...)

asearcher said:

And let's be realistic about the Beth thing too. In the orginal history, Beth has decided not to wait because she now believes (that is the key word) that Al is never coming home. When Sam tells her that Al is coming home, she believes this "angel" and waits. But think about it...if 50 years went by...would Beth still have believed him or would she have thought that Sam was a hallucination (that is would she have gone back to the belief that Al was gone and never coming home.) The only thing that Sam gave Beth was hope within a reasonable timeframe for her to hang on to. Al came home before she could lose that hope again.

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Well, we don't know for certain whether Sam gave Beth a specific time frame or not. At the end of the last scene, Sam is still in Beth's house and I took it that Sam was still in the process of elaborating more about it. I mean, some strange man suddenly appears in your house, simply tells you that your husband is alive and coming home, and then disappears... It doesn't seem realistic that someone would be convinced simply by that. We did see Beth break down and cry from that, but she was at a vulnerable time in her life where she could be easily affected. So I'm pretty sure that Sam got a little more specific about it, and perhaps even told Beth the year Al would return. But that of course is open to interpretation. My point is that if Sam were more specific, that would make all the difference because once 1975 rolled around, Beth could then see if what Sam told her was true or not.

asearcher said:

2. When Donna makes the statement in the Leap Back (Season 3) that nothing that Sam has ever done has hurt her, it was BEFORE some of the more troubling relationships (e.g. Tamlin and Abagail). Indeed, after Abigail, Sammy Jo comes on the scene and that had to be a issue for Donna. Might she have said what she said in year three so that "Sam would come home?" Yeah. Would she have NEVER changed her mind (especially after he doesn't return)? Doubtful based on the reality of the situation. I guess if Donna was some kind of a clingy, needy person without her own sense of herself...ok...maybe she "hangs on" to someone who never returns. But I don't get from either Star-Crossed or Leap Home that Donna is that type of person. Rather, I think that at some point...Donna stops being a martyr, and chooses to address her own needs.

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I was always under the impression that only Ziggy and Al knew that Sammy Jo was Sam's daughter. But I do have a nagging suspicion that Sammy Jo would eventually at some point put two and two together, and figure out that Sam could very well have been her father. So, I never really thought that Donna knew about it. And I think that both Al and Ziggy kept it hidden from her for her own protection──exactly the way Al kept the fact that Sam was married hidden from him. (And apparently a lot of secrets are kept at the Project, like all of Al's affairs [before "Mirror Image"] and Tina's affair with Gooshie, so it's really not that difficult to believe Donna was kept in the dark.) But I have no doubt that Donna eventually moved on. It's just that we left the series at a point where Donna still had hope and was still part of the Project.

naggindragon said:

And just a quick correction to the very first post.

It was the first episode of Season 4 where Sam and Al simo-leap.

And Sam's wife (the character at least) definitely IS the same woman who Teri Hatcher played in Star Crossed - just different people playing them (which I think was a huge mistake considering Teri Hatcher's so gorgeous and "older Donna" is such a dragon). They are both called Donna Elesee.

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I thought Mimi Kuzak was good.

Good points on all counts, except where you say Donna must have had an issue with Sammy Jo. Sammy Jo was sure that Will Kinman was her father, and this would not have changed through the rest of the series (though we don't know about after the series ended - VS plug). Unless Donna knew already that Sammy Jo was Sam's daughter, which is doubtful considering Al would never betray Sam's friendship and hurt her like that, I don't think she would have had a problem with Sammy Jo. Not to mention that she herself said "I have never felt that you have betrayed our marriage," and I don't believe that would change after the leap back either.

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Why wouldnt it chance, her husband had sex with another woman

In Donna's case, I don't believe she would believe that Sam is coming home forever. There would be a time that not knowing would get to her and she would be like Beth in the orginal history. He's not coming home, move on. Even if she still loves him (didn't Beth STILL love Al when she had him declared dead?) Otherwise, Donna and Sam is an absolutely tragic story in that Sam has caused the woman who was the love of his life to stay on a string...tied to him but never really having any happiness. Yeah...that sounds like real love to me (not!). Love would be Sam being willing to sacrifice that...to let Donna go because ultimately her happiness would be more important than his "keeping her for himself."

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i dont think she would have to wait forever, i believe, or want to believe that Sam will someday find away home.


and i still wonder why Donna was not shown in Mirror Image during the descovery that the waiting room was empty.

i've mentioned this in other posts, but I wonder if Sam would leap all the way home if he did know about Donna, assuming he really does control his leaps.

However, I think if Sam knew he would never return home, he would be happy for Donna to get on with her own life and meet someone new.

I agree with your analysis, asearcher. It's just inconsistent for me that a brilliant, otherwise self-assured woman would wait forever, especially after everything goes ca-ca in MI. I think she would move on with her life.

Well, we don't know for certain whether Sam gave Beth a specific time frame or not. [snip] So I'm pretty sure that Sam got a little more specific about it, and perhaps even told Beth the year Al would return. But that of course is open to interpretation.

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He seems like he's settling in for a pretty detailed story. He says, let me tell you the ending first: Al is alive and is coming home. That and the camera work (panning over to Beth) suggest that he then starts at the beginning and tells her the whole thing (maybe about the Project and the MIA leap, maybe just about Al being shot down). If someone told me things that I know he couldn't know about me and my life, and then tells me something is going to happen in the future, you bet I'd believe it. (It's actually happened to me before in real life. It's very spooky, yes, but it's also not something you dismiss.)

i've mentioned this in other posts, but I wonder if Sam would leap all the way home if he did know about Donna, assuming he really does control his leaps.

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My own opinion is that Sam never wanted to go home more than he wanted to continue his calling. I don't know if knowing about Donna would have changed that. It was odd to me that he retained other stuff about his family: saving Tom, his dad's death, Katie's abuse, but never retained the love of his life, even after LH.

buy he said in so many episodes how he wanted to go home, and in Mirror Image, he cried when he said it. he wanted to go home more than anything he just felt that he HAD to keep leaping.

i think if he had remembered Donna during this time, that he would have taken control of his leaping and gone home after telling Beth to wait. remember in the leap back
"I'l be back, i swear to God i'll be back" *kiss*
his voice was very emotional and had meaning in it when he said it too. if he had remembered that he probably would have complied.

just the way i see it.

asearcher said:

I've read somewhere that the Leap Home Episode was written when Don Bellasario and Deborah Pratt were not getting along. Deborah was planning the Trilogy episodes and Don threw in this little piece to mess that up for her. Whether that is true or not, I have a real problem with the whole canon scenario and Donna.

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Really? I've never heard this before. This is why they say married people should never work together...

And I find myself uncomfortable with the Donna scenario, as well. It wouldn't be so bad if there was no Donna, and Sam was free to sleep with any woman he met in a Leap, or if there was a Donna and Sam remained celibate, but his relationship with other women while married really disturbs me. Especially since Sam once said that he'd only sleep with women he was in love with, meaning he didn't sleep with any of these other women because the Leap required it.

LadyKayoss said:

Really? I've never heard this before. This is why they say married people should never work together...

And I find myself uncomfortable with the Donna scenario, as well. It wouldn't be so bad if there was no Donna, and Sam was free to sleep with any woman he met in a Leap, or if there was a Donna and Sam remained celibate, but his relationship with other women while married really disturbs me. Especially since Sam once said that he'd only sleep with women he was in love with, meaning he didn't sleep with any of these other women because the Leap required it.

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remember now he only slept with a few women most of them such as Diane McBride he refused to sleep with because of his morals. and the few select women he did sleep with he actually loved, eg: Abigale and Tamlyn.

I like that he loved Tamlyn and Abigail; but it ruins the romance of the story knowing that he has a wife back home.

LadyKayoss said:

I like that he loved Tamlyn and Abigail; but it ruins the romance of the story knowing that he has a wife back home.

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yeah i agree with you except i do not like Abigale. she annoyed the hell out of me it especially troubled me after Donna told him he had never done anything to betray thier love in the leap back. it makes me sad now when i hear that line.

but i absolutly loved Tamlyn. :angel

leaper said:

and something else in the episode killing time we didnt see donna anywhere and also in the final episode mirror image.That was a mistake i think couse in killing time sams body was almost die becouse of this lunatic and donna didnt have any wories at all?and in mirror image where the waiting room was empty donna didnt worry what happened to her husband?So i guess my only guess is that donna might have continued her life without sam and she IS HISTORY lol.

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regarding your comment on Mirror IMage, i said that TWICE.>D

Remember "Leap Back" : "Don't tell him about me, promise" "I promise" That's why Donna is an OK person. I think that is an indication of Sam having an idea what was going to happen in the project. That's the way I've always thought. But then again, I always balled my eyes the end of "Mirror Image" thinking of Donna, Al, and Sammy Jo.

(P.S. Soon I am going to post my outline of a story I want to write once I'm done school. It's been swarming in my head for such a long time.)

Could someone remind who Tamlyn is again?

I didn't really like the relationship between Abigail and Sam, it just felt wrong, especially because he was in the role of her father in the previous leap.
Maybe we didn't see Donna in the final episode because the actress didn't want to do it and they didn't want to give Donna another head transplant, so they just didn't mention the character in the final episode.

Thanks, I think I know who you mean now, I haven't seen that episode in ages though!