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Old 09-13-2013, 02:49 AM   #1
Lightning McQueenie
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Hi all, this is a thread where we can post miscellaneous Quantum Leap observations/facts/questions that pop into your head.

A few things I noticed:

- Angelita and Stawpah are both dead and help out the living. When Angelita succeeds, we see her walk away from Sam and he forgets everything, while Stawpah simply leaps immediately. Imagine what we all would have thought if instead of Angelita walking off, she leapt...

- We have seen in the Wrong Stuff that because Bobo is incapable of human speech, his aura prevents Sam from being able to be understood. Does this mean that if Sam leaps into someone who doesn't speak English, if he tried to speak in English, the aura would not be able to?

- Sam has leapt into women on numerous occasions. What would him peeing look like if someone walked in on him? Would it look like the leapee is aiming without anything to aim with? Or would it just look like the pee is coming out of nowhere? Perhaps Sam should just pee sitting down during these leaps :P

- We know that Sam is not dead, but his project enabled him to do what some dead people (angels) do, try to put right what once went wrong. Do you think when he eventually dies, he will continue to do what the angels do? Or do you think he'll finally decide to rest?

- We know that it is not really GFTW leaping Sam around (even though it has been known to intervene if it looks like Sam is going to fail), but rather Sam is leaping himself. Does this mean that his Swiss-cheesed brain is really himself subconsciously blocking out anything that could prevent him from doing his life's work? I think it is, considering we have seen numerous occasions when the Swiss-cheese effect can be at least partially overcome if the leaper has a specific task in mind when leaping (e.g. Sam leaping into Al and preventing his murder, Bingo leaping into himself in the past to prevent Chip from murdering Commander Ricker's wife, Zoe leaping to kill Alia). This would explain why even though he does start remembering portions of his life, he continually remains oblivious to his marriage to Donna, as remembering he is married could prevent him from doing the job, which Al so eloquently put "is a dirty job, but someone has to do it"


Any thoughts on the points I have raised? Or does anyone have any other tidbits they'd like to contribute?
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Old 09-13-2013, 05:34 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie View Post
Hi all, this is a thread where we can post miscellaneous Quantum Leap observations/facts/questions that pop into your head.

A few things I noticed:

- Angelita and Stawpah are both dead and help out the living. When Angelita succeeds, we see her walk away from Sam and he forgets everything, while Stawpah simply leaps immediately. Imagine what we all would have thought if instead of Angelita walking off, she leapt...

- We have seen in the Wrong Stuff that because Bobo is incapable of human speech, his aura prevents Sam from being able to be understood. Does this mean that if Sam leaps into someone who doesn't speak English, if he tried to speak in English, the aura would not be able to?

- Sam has leapt into women on numerous occasions. What would him peeing look like if someone walked in on him? Would it look like the leapee is aiming without anything to aim with? Or would it just look like the pee is coming out of nowhere? Perhaps Sam should just pee sitting down during these leaps :P

- We know that Sam is not dead, but his project enabled him to do what some dead people (angels) do, try to put right what once went wrong. Do you think when he eventually dies, he will continue to do what the angels do? Or do you think he'll finally decide to rest?

- We know that it is not really GFTW leaping Sam around (even though it has been known to intervene if it looks like Sam is going to fail), but rather Sam is leaping himself. Does this mean that his Swiss-cheesed brain is really himself subconsciously blocking out anything that could prevent him from doing his life's work? I think it is, considering we have seen numerous occasions when the Swiss-cheese effect can be at least partially overcome if the leaper has a specific task in mind when leaping (e.g. Sam leaping into Al and preventing his murder, Bingo leaping into himself in the past to prevent Chip from murdering Commander Ricker's wife, Zoe leaping to kill Alia). This would explain why even though he does start remembering portions of his life, he continually remains oblivious to his marriage to Donna, as remembering he is married could prevent him from doing the job, which Al so eloquently put "is a dirty job, but someone has to do it"


Any thoughts on the points I have raised? Or does anyone have any other tidbits they'd like to contribute?
Oops. I had some very long insight into this and for some reason I couldn't submit it. How fool I was because I didn't save it!! I'll try to post it tomorrow again if I can remember it all. I'm tired now.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:35 AM   #3
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Does this mean that if Sam leaps into someone who doesn't speak English, if he tried to speak in English, the aura would not be able to?
My take is that everyone around the leapee will see and hear the aura. So even if Sam speaks English they will hear what they are supposed to hear, in the language they're supposed to hear it in. Don't ask me how that works, it just does, lol.

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Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie View Post
We know that Sam is not dead, but his project enabled him to do what some dead people (angels) do, try to put right what once went wrong. Do you think when he eventually dies, he will continue to do what the angels do? Or do you think he'll finally decide to rest?
Knowing Sam I think he would continue on.

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Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie View Post
We know that it is not really GFTW leaping Sam around (even though it has been known to intervene if it looks like Sam is going to fail), but rather Sam is leaping himself. Does this mean that his Swiss-cheesed brain is really himself subconsciously blocking out anything that could prevent him from doing his life's work? I think it is, considering we have seen numerous occasions when the Swiss-cheese effect can be at least partially overcome if the leaper has a specific task in mind when leaping (e.g. Sam leaping into Al and preventing his murder, Bingo leaping into himself in the past to prevent Chip from murdering Commander Ricker's wife, Zoe leaping to kill Alia). This would explain why even though he does start remembering portions of his life, he continually remains oblivious to his marriage to Donna, as remembering he is married could prevent him from doing the job, which Al so eloquently put "is a dirty job, but someone has to do it"
Yes, in my opinion Sam's mind is unconsciously blocking out Donna because if he remembered her it would make him want to go home instead of continuing his mission that he wants to keep doing. Donna is a key person on the project and his wife. There really isn't any other way to reconcile why he remembers every other key person on the project but not his own wife -- and it's the one explanation that doesn't make Sam seem like a complete jerk.
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Old 09-13-2013, 03:45 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie
- We have seen in the Wrong Stuff that because Bobo is incapable of human speech, his aura prevents Sam from being able to be understood. Does this mean that if Sam leaps into someone who doesn't speak English, if he tried to speak in English, the aura would not be able to?
Actually the season 1 episode Double Identity answers this. He leaps into a man who while able to speak English is well known for utilizing it very little. Sam is responded to with concern a few times when it is being noticed that he is not been speaking in Italian. Which unfortunately is not in Sam's wide collection of languages. In addition in the salon scene he requires translator assistance from Al when expected to answer to Don Gino in Italian.

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Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie
- We know that it is not really GFTW leaping Sam around (even though it has been known to intervene if it looks like Sam is going to fail), but rather Sam is leaping himself. Does this mean that his Swiss-cheesed brain is really himself subconsciously blocking out anything that could prevent him from doing his life's work? I think it is, considering we have seen numerous occasions when the Swiss-cheese effect can be at least partially overcome if the leaper has a specific task in mind when leaping (e.g. Sam leaping into Al and preventing his murder, Bingo leaping into himself in the past to prevent Chip from murdering Commander Ricker's wife, Zoe leaping to kill Alia). This would explain why even though he does start remembering portions of his life, he continually remains oblivious to his marriage to Donna, as remembering he is married could prevent him from doing the job, which Al so eloquently put "is a dirty job, but someone has to do it"
His inability to regain his memory of Donna actually makes no sense however is explained in terms of the writing. Deborah Pratt who was more intrigued by the idea of putting Sam in an in-leap serious relationship (Abigail) regretted reintroducing Donna in The Leap Back. Sad in my opinion as I am a Sam/Donna fan, but his never remembering her is most likely a failed attempt to erase the idea that Sam is married back in his present.

Another way it can be seen from the storyline angle is that the possibility that Sam's success in Star Crossed had somehow been reversed by a timeline changing action of Sam's after The Leap Back could be entertained.

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Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie
- Sam has leapt into women on numerous occasions. What would him peeing look like if someone walked in on him? Would it look like the leapee is aiming without anything to aim with? Or would it just look like the pee is coming out of nowhere? Perhaps Sam should just pee sitting down during these leaps :P
ROTFL! I have pondered this myself. I think it can be assumed though that as a female he sits especially when using a public restroom which is specific to females.
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Old 09-13-2013, 03:53 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie View Post
Hi all, this is a thread where we can post miscellaneous Quantum Leap observations/facts/questions that pop into your head.

A few things I noticed:

- Angelita and Stawpah are both dead and help out the living. When Angelita succeeds, we see her walk away from Sam and he forgets everything, while Stawpah simply leaps immediately. Imagine what we all would have thought if instead of Angelita walking off, she leapt...

- We have seen in the Wrong Stuff that because Bobo is incapable of human speech, his aura prevents Sam from being able to be understood. Does this mean that if Sam leaps into someone who doesn't speak English, if he tried to speak in English, the aura would not be able to?

- Sam has leapt into women on numerous occasions. What would him peeing look like if someone walked in on him? Would it look like the leapee is aiming without anything to aim with? Or would it just look like the pee is coming out of nowhere? Perhaps Sam should just pee sitting down during these leaps :P

- We know that Sam is not dead, but his project enabled him to do what some dead people (angels) do, try to put right what once went wrong. Do you think when he eventually dies, he will continue to do what the angels do? Or do you think he'll finally decide to rest?

- We know that it is not really GFTW leaping Sam around (even though it has been known to intervene if it looks like Sam is going to fail), but rather Sam is leaping himself. Does this mean that his Swiss-cheesed brain is really himself subconsciously blocking out anything that could prevent him from doing his life's work? I think it is, considering we have seen numerous occasions when the Swiss-cheese effect can be at least partially overcome if the leaper has a specific task in mind when leaping (e.g. Sam leaping into Al and preventing his murder, Bingo leaping into himself in the past to prevent Chip from murdering Commander Ricker's wife, Zoe leaping to kill Alia). This would explain why even though he does start remembering portions of his life, he continually remains oblivious to his marriage to Donna, as remembering he is married could prevent him from doing the job, which Al so eloquently put "is a dirty job, but someone has to do it"


Any thoughts on the points I have raised? Or does anyone have any other tidbits they'd like to contribute?
OK, here it goes...

On Sam and the aura: It wouldn't matter if the leapee didn't speak English. The aura would speak the English that Sam knows. In order for Sam to be understood, either he would have to know the language of the leapee, or the people around the leapee's life would have to know the English of Sam. This in itself would cause some problems and issues as well. For example, what if the leapee was known to not speak any other language and he suddenly starts speaking English? They would even try to put him on a loony bin or to study him, etc. With Bobo was different because he was an animal, a chimpanzee, and so it would be the same, for example, as if he leapt into a lion, a cow, a dog or a cat. It only applies for animals but not for human auras... With an exception: If he leapt into a baby. The aura would still babble while Sam would still speak clearly. Why? Probably because of the stage of the brain, being still under-developed.

On Sam being caught peeing while being a woman: It would be something quite scary for the person who saw him, I believe. Like something along the lines of "Nowhere To Run". We saw the reflection on the mirror of the leapee without legs still walking on thin air, so in this case I think there would be no "aimer".

On Sam "doing what Angels do". I believe he would do it. Resting in peace for him is continuing with his mission.

On the swiss-cheese blocking effect, you're absolutely right. And let me add that I think that, as time progressed, Sam learned to be OK with it. With "Mirror Image" the learning was complete. He decided to give up the life of a common man and, instead of being just a reluctant hero, he became a very conscious one. Saving Al's life was the key on this. I believe that, even if he remembered Donna, he would still go on. It's probably a contradiction, following "Star-Crossed" and a big price to pay, but there's also an old saying: "sometimes we have to kill... but our real job is to save lives."

On Angelita and Stawpah. I think Stawpah is on the same vein as Angelita. Everybody else forgot him on the bar, but why not Sam? I'd like to believe that it's probably because Al The Bartender didn't want him to. He served as a device so Sam could understand his position one step further. This raises another mystery: The Gooshie at the bar. Was he actually another leaper or an "Angel"? I think he may have been, and he was just a way from The Bartender to tell Sam: "Yeah, so you are goodness, but not ALL of it because you're not alone in this mission and there are other people doing what you do." It's interesting that he shows up exactly every time Stawpah is not there. If he had been there at the time Stawpah disappeared, he would have remembered him as well. At least that's what I think. I see the whole "Mirror Image" episode as a sort of a break for Sam so he could acquire the correct knowledge and the preparation to continue with his mission but with tougher leaps. The Bartender is really GTFW, but he's not leaping Sam. Sam is leaping himself, and he had to make a choice. To quit or to keep going. After he saved Al, he decided to continue, even though he had told The Bartender that he wanted to go home. That didn't matter anymore. His task with the Universe was not over, and he finally understood that clearly.
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Old 09-13-2013, 05:22 PM   #6
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Having needed to step out earlier I was unable to include in my previous post, the Stawpah thing never made complete sense to me but nor does most of that episode. Though I find it can not be a coincidence that Stawpah is suggested to have been Al's uncle.

The difference I hypothesize between him and Angela is that perhaps Stawpah never left the earthly plain making him a wondering spirit as opposed to an angel. This is the only way I can make sense of their different exits.
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:17 PM   #7
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On the swiss-cheese blocking effect, you're absolutely right. And let me add that I think that, as time progressed, Sam learned to be OK with it. With "Mirror Image" the learning was complete. He decided to give up the life of a common man and, instead of being just a reluctant hero, he became a very conscious one. Saving Al's life was the key on this. I believe that, even if he remembered Donna, he would still go on. It's probably a contradiction, following "Star-Crossed" and a big price to pay, but there's also an old saying: "sometimes we have to kill... but our real job is to save lives."
I believe that if he ever did remember Donna, he'd realise how badly he's hurt her by making her make peace with her father and get over her abandonment issues, only to abandon her himself. I expect that he would leap to try to prevent marrying her, maybe even trying to convince her to marry her first fiance instead

Quote:
On Angelita and Stawpah. I think Stawpah is on the same vein as Angelita. Everybody else forgot him on the bar, but why not Sam? I'd like to believe that it's probably because Al The Bartender didn't want him to. He served as a device so Sam could understand his position one step further. This raises another mystery: The Gooshie at the bar. Was he actually another leaper or an "Angel"? I think he may have been, and he was just a way from The Bartender to tell Sam: "Yeah, so you are goodness, but not ALL of it because you're not alone in this mission and there are other people doing what you do." It's interesting that he shows up exactly every time Stawpah is not there. If he had been there at the time Stawpah disappeared, he would have remembered him as well. At least that's what I think. I see the whole "Mirror Image" episode as a sort of a break for Sam so he could acquire the correct knowledge and the preparation to continue with his mission but with tougher leaps. The Bartender is really GTFW, but he's not leaping Sam. Sam is leaping himself, and he had to make a choice. To quit or to keep going. After he saved Al, he decided to continue, even though he had told The Bartender that he wanted to go home. That didn't matter anymore. His task with the Universe was not over, and he finally understood that clearly.
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Having needed to step out earlier I was unable to include in my previous post, the Stawpah thing never made complete sense to me but nor does most of that episode. Though I find it can not be a coincidence that Stawpah is suggested to have been Al's uncle.

The difference I hypothesize between him and Angela is that perhaps Stawpah never left the earthly plain making him a wondering spirit as opposed to an angel. This is the only way I can make sense of their different exits.
First of all, Al the Bartender is NOT GFTW, he says so himself. To understand this episode, we need to understand that this leap is different to any other. He has not leapt into a person, rather, he has leapt into his own subconscious to try to make sense of his life.

It helps if you think about this episode like the Wizard of Oz, there are in fact a number of parallels - both Sam's leap and Dorothy's trip to Oz are implied to happen in their own heads, everyone they meet reminds them of someone they've met before, and they both want to go home. The major difference of course is the lesson that they each learn, Dorothy learning that if she wants to find happiness, there's no place like home, while Sam learns that he created Project Quantum Leap to make the world a better place, it's his life's work, and so he can't go home because there are always more wrongs that need to be put right.

So if Al the Bartender isn't GFTW, then what is he? Like everything else in this leap, he's a creation of Sam. I see three parts of Sam's psyche appearing in this episode. The Sam we see as Sam in this leap is really Sam's Id, his true self, all his wants and needs. Al the Bartender is Sam's Ego. He's the one who tries to get the Id to come to his senses and realise what really needs to be done. But it's not until Al the Observer appears that Sam realises how he can do what he needs to do. Al the Observer represesnts Sam's Superego, the one who provides the means to do what is needed and wanted, that is to save Al's marriage and then to keep on leaping.

Back on the Wizard of Oz analogy, I may have just answered my own question regarding Stawpah and Angelita. Stawpah is in fact Sam's recollection of an angel having helped him and knowledge of their existence, but it's more like a feeling in his heart rather than a proper memory. This is why Stawpah looks nothing like Angelita and leaps away rather than walking off. Why he chose to have Al's uncle be the manifestation of an angel I don't know, maybe he had become so codependent on Al the Observer that he needed someone Al-like to be there...
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:59 PM   #8
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I believe that if he ever did remember Donna, he'd realise how badly he's hurt her by making her make peace with her father and get over her abandonment issues, only to abandon her himself. I expect that he would leap to try to prevent marrying her, maybe even trying to convince her to marry her first fiance instead
I agree with this. Sam can choose to make a sacrifice for himself but it's not up to him to choose that for someone else. I think he would at least want to try to make it right once he realized he'd done wrong by her. I have no doubt that he loves her, he didn't want to hurt her and would feel terrible to know that he had. Though it still doesn't make sense to me why she didn't marry her first fiance in the first place. If making peace with her father helped her get over her abandonment issues she shouldn't have been afraid of commitment that first time.

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First of all, Al the Bartender is NOT GFTW, he says so himself.
There's a theory that Al the Bartender is actually a physical manifestation of Ziggy and that it's Ziggy who has been in control all along, which is an interesting idea. But I like the Wizard of Oz analogy, too, and the idea that Sam is dreaming the leap, putting different names to familiar faces and vice versa -- it works really well for the episode and I like the idea that it's Sam who subconsciously chooses to continue leaping because of his desire to make the world a better place.
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Old 09-14-2013, 12:28 AM   #9
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I have no doubt that he loves her, he didn't want to hurt her and would feel terrible to know that he had. Though it still doesn't make sense to me why she didn't marry her first fiance in the first place. If making peace with her father helped her get over her abandonment issues she shouldn't have been afraid of commitment that first time.
It's Scott's belief that Donna was aware of what she married into, that she understands that Sam is fulfilling a great purpose and therefore not hurt by his actions. He also seemed to disagree with Sam's being unable to act freely with the memory of her. That he would know that she understood and this that he wasn't hurting her.
Watch the 2012 Wizard World comic con Quantum Leap panel on youtube where Scott explains this to a questioner.
(NOTE: turn up your volume, the sound system at this panel was poor).

As for why she did not marry her first fiancee, there are a few possible reasons which all come down to there being no love there. Such as the explanation that the novel Mirror's Edge offered of it being someone her mother had set her up with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightning McQueenie
First of all, Al the Bartender is NOT GFTW, he says so himself. To understand this episode, we need to understand that this leap is different to any other. He has not leapt into a person, rather, he has leapt into his own subconscious to try to make sense of his life.

It helps if you think about this episode like the Wizard of Oz, there are in fact a number of parallels - both Sam's leap and Dorothy's trip to Oz are implied to happen in their own heads, everyone they meet reminds them of someone they've met before, and they both want to go home. The major difference of course is the lesson that they each learn, Dorothy learning that if she wants to find happiness, there's no place like home, while Sam learns that he created Project Quantum Leap to make the world a better place, it's his life's work, and so he can't go home because there are always more wrongs that need to be put right.

So if Al the Bartender isn't GFTW, then what is he? Like everything else in this leap, he's a creation of Sam. I see three parts of Sam's psyche appearing in this episode. The Sam we see as Sam in this leap is really Sam's Id, his true self, all his wants and needs. Al the Bartender is Sam's Ego. He's the one who tries to get the Id to come to his senses and realise what really needs to be done. But it's not until Al the Observer appears that Sam realises how he can do what he needs to do. Al the Observer represesnts Sam's Superego, the one who provides the means to do what is needed and wanted, that is to save Al's marriage and then to keep on leaping.

Back on the Wizard of Oz analogy, I may have just answered my own question regarding Stawpah and Angelita. Stawpah is in fact Sam's recollection of an angel having helped him and knowledge of their existence, but it's more like a feeling in his heart rather than a proper memory. This is why Stawpah looks nothing like Angelita and leaps away rather than walking off. Why he chose to have Al's uncle be the manifestation of an angel I don't know, maybe he had become so codependent on Al the Observer that he needed someone Al-like to be there...
This is a pretty amazing theory and I believe some part of me in a way also saw the finale leap as some part of his subconscious. How it is possible for Sam to leap into his own subconscious is still a question at least for me. Unless he was in fact, as had just come to mind the other day, in between leaps. Continuing the Wizard of Oz comparison, Dorothy had turned out to have been unconscious/comatose and it can be assumed that in between leaps Sam is in a way comatose which would explain how from his perspective the transfer from one leap to the next is instantaneous.

My mind is now putting together a new theory to explain Stawpah. He's been stuck in a time loop as he several times over fails and retries the same task and of all those familiar to Sam in this environment, the lives he needs to save are those of the Frank and Jimmy look-alikes who'd been trapped in a mine and drowned. In the end it was Sam who did it. Later after his final departure it is then suggested that Stawpah is Al's uncle.
So what does everything about Stawpah seem to be centered around? Al right? Jimmy had meant the most to Al and in this case would represent his sister Trudy.
So my new theory is that Stawpah is Al's damaged soul which would account for his crippled appearance (don't forget that after The Leap Back he actually has some of Al's mind) or perhaps Sam's regret from turning his back on the opportunity to restore Al's first marriage. Or a little of both. We see in one scene Sam is even brought to tears thinking back on the attempt he could have made with Beth and then remedies it at the end.
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Old 09-14-2013, 12:57 AM   #10
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It's Scott's belief that Donna was aware of what she married into, that she understands that Sam is fulfilling a great purpose and therefore not hurt by his actions. He also seemed to disagree with Sam's being unable to act freely with the memory of her. That he would know that she understood and this that he wasn't hurting her.
Watch the 2012 Wizard World comic con Quantum Leap panel on youtube where Scott explains this to a questioner.
(NOTE: turn up your volume, the sound system at this panel was poor).

As for why she did not marry her first fiancee, there are a few possible reasons which all come down to there being no love there. Such as the explanation that the novel Mirror's Edge offered of it being someone her mother had set her up with.



This is a pretty amazing theory and I believe some part of me in a way also saw the finale leap as some part of his subconscious. How it is possible for Sam to leap into his own subconscious is still a question at least for me. Unless he was in fact, as had just come to mind the other day, in between leaps. Continuing the Wizard of Oz comparison, Dorothy had turned out to have been unconscious/comatose and it can be assumed that in between leaps Sam is in a way comatose which would explain how from his perspective the transfer from one leap to the next is instantaneous.

My mind is now putting together a new theory to explain Stawpah. He's been stuck in a time loop as he several times over fails and retries the same task and of all those familiar to Sam in this environment, the lives he needs to save are those of the Frank and Jimmy look-alikes who'd been trapped in a mine and drowned. In the end it was Sam who did it. Later after his final departure it is then suggested that Stawpah is Al's uncle.
So what does everything about Stawpah seem to be centered around? Al right? Jimmy had meant the most to Al and in this case would represent his sister Trudy.
So my new theory is that Stawpah is Al's damaged soul which would account for his crippled appearance (don't forget that after The Leap Back he actually has some of Al's mind) or perhaps Sam's regret from turning his back on the opportunity to restore Al's first marriage. Or a little of both. We see in one scene Sam is even brought to tears thinking back on the attempt he could have made with Beth and then remedies it at the end.
That's an amazing theory about Stawpah... In fact, now I think about it, was Stawpah's actor ever credited? He looked an awful lot like Al/Dean Stockwell. Did Dean Stockwell play Stawpah as well? The idea that Stawpah is the piece of Al that Sam absorbed is a good one, and you're right, it makes sense that Frank and Jimmy/Tonchi and Pete/Trudy would stick out in this leap, as it is a family that Sam had helped twice, and you're right, really hits home for Al. I can't see any fault in this logic at all
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Old 09-14-2013, 03:31 AM   #11
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Sawpah is played by Stephan McHattie who is not said to be related to Dean Stockwell. He in fact is about ten years younger than Dean.
In addition I had forgotten but was reminded by IMDB that Stawpah was Russian which would put him on Al's mother's side if in fact he was his uncle. His mother who ran off with the Encyclopedia salesmen when he was a young child.
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Old 09-14-2013, 06:33 AM   #12
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Sawpah is played by Stephan McHattie who is not said to be related to Dean Stockwell. He in fact is about ten years younger than Dean.
Really? 10 years younger? Wow! I never would've thought so. I'm not saying that he looked that old, but he certainly didn't look 10 years younger than Dean.

Anyway, something I will always love from "Mirror Image" is the fact that all the theories about it are valid and there's not an absolute right one. It means DPB succeeded at making us play with our varied imagination a lil' bit. Shame there were no more eps. after MI to confirm all these theories.
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Old 09-14-2013, 07:05 AM   #13
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I didn't mean for this to become a Mirror Image Thread, sorry for it going off on a tangent like that.

On the subject of auras, it seems kind of silly that the leapee's clothes always fit Sam perfectly. I think they must reshape around his body while the aura still looks normal. This could prove comical if someone was seeing Sam as Sam, ala Shallow Hal (watch this trailer at about 1:30 :P )
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Old 09-14-2013, 01:30 PM   #14
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It's Scott's belief that Donna was aware of what she married into, that she understands that Sam is fulfilling a great purpose and therefore not hurt by his actions. He also seemed to disagree with Sam's being unable to act freely with the memory of her. That he would know that she understood and this that he wasn't hurting her.
Yes, I've heard that explanation and Scott talk about it. Nevertheless, I respectfully disagree with it. I won't get into the nitty gritty of why because I don't want to turn this into a Donna thread either. I haven't read Mirror's Edge yet [I don't have that one]. I've enjoyed the few novels I've read and some of those authors dealt with the Donna story line -- they had some interesting theories about her and about the marriage. They aren't canon though -- they're basically published fanfics. The canon itself unfortunately didn't really do a good job with this arc and left it as a loose thread.
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Old 09-14-2013, 01:35 PM   #15
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I didn't mean for this to become a Mirror Image Thread, sorry for it going off on a tangent like that.
Well, I like 'Mirror Image' so I don't mind discussing it.

I like your theory about Stawpah too. I've always thought that Jimmy was a very special leapee for not just Al but Sam, too, because of Al. So it makes sense that Jimmy would be one of the leapees that would appear in this bar.

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On the subject of auras, it seems kind of silly that the leapee's clothes always fit Sam perfectly. I think they must reshape around his body while the aura still looks normal. This could prove comical if someone was seeing Sam as Sam, ala Shallow Hal (watch this trailer at about 1:30 :P )
That's the explanation I had heard. Re the second part, In 'Another Mother' for example Teresa sees Sam as Sam, a man wearing a dress, but she says nothing about how it's too small for him. I'm sure the woman's dress would be too tight and short on him, he's six feet. Teresa would be able to see that.

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Anyway, something I will always love from "Mirror Image" is the fact that all the theories about it are valid and there's not an absolute right one. It means DPB succeeded at making us play with our varied imagination a lil' bit. Shame there were no more eps. after MI to confirm all these theories.
That's how I feel about it and why I never get tired of discussion about this episode. I would've loved to have seen what DPB would have done had the show gone beyond this episode.
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Old 09-14-2013, 02:18 PM   #16
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Yes, I've heard that explanation and Scott talk about it. Nevertheless, I respectfully disagree with it. I won't get into the nitty gritty of why because I don't want to turn this into a Donna thread either. I haven't read Mirror's Edge yet [I don't have that one]. I've enjoyed the few novels I've read and some of those authors dealt with the Donna story line -- they had some interesting theories about her and about the marriage. They aren't canon though -- they're basically published fanfics. The canon itself unfortunately didn't really do a good job with this arc and left it as a loose thread.
I am aware that the novels are not cannon which is why I am careful to reference their content with proceeding terms such as "the explanation the novel Mirror's Edge offers". I highly recommend it by the way, it's one of my favorites and in my opinion very well written.
Knights Of the Morningstar is another which portrays Donna very well and has a good over all storyline.

*****

The issue with the clothing is an interesting one, for example Raped is one the more puzzling situations because Katie McBane was a teenager so by default smaller than the average woman, smaller then say Linda Bruckner of Another Mother but also seemingly decently slim. So Sam being able to fit into her clothes was certainly a riddle. I am not sure I have a theory to offer for that other than what has already been suggested, that they expand for him though that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.

Another question has nagged at me. Though Sam is of course not one who frequently had sexual relationships with the people he was involved with in leaps, hypothetically for a moment lets say that he were to give in to his urges with another woman while in a woman aura. Would his partner be able to feel his 'thing' inside her? My guess is that she would since really it's no different than if he were to have sex with her with a male aura. His body is there no matter what. It's still interesting to think about though. What this really questions is how strong is the aura? How much does it actually effect?
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Old 09-14-2013, 02:51 PM   #17
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I am aware that the novels are not cannon which is why I am careful to reference their content with proceeding terms such as "the explanation the novel Mirror's Edge offers". I highly recommend it by the way, it's one of my favorites and in my opinion very well written.
Knights Of the Morningstar is another which portrays Donna very well and has a good over all storyline.
Knights of the Morningstar is a good one. I'm not a big fan of the evil leapers but Rawn handled them well, as well as the rest of the QL universe, and she's a very good writer.

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Another question has nagged at me. Though Sam is of course not one who frequently had sexual relationships with the people he was involved with in leaps, hypothetically for a moment lets say that he were to give in to his urges with another woman while in a woman aura. Would his partner be able to feel his 'thing' inside her? My guess is that she would since really it's no different than if he were to have sex with her with a male aura. His body is there no matter what. It's still interesting to think about though. What this really questions is how strong is the aura? How much does it actually effect?
Yeah, a lot of things really don't work if you look too closely, or you have to just assume that the rules of leaping constantly change. This quandry has occurred to me as well. In Liberation Sam couldn't get himself to kiss the leapee's husband. But if the situation had been two women then being a straight guy he'd probably have had no problem with it. Further complicating things: we know Sam can actually conceive a child in the body of a male leapee. My guess is he could still do so while leaping into a woman, since it is his body there, depending on the logistics though, which I won't get detailed about since this is a general audience forum. It could be an unexpected surprise for the leapee's partner all depending.
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Old 09-14-2013, 03:34 PM   #18
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Knights of the Morningstar is a good one. I'm not a big fan of the evil leapers but Rawn handled them well, as well as the rest of the QL universe, and she's a very good writer.
Couldn't agree more. There was flaw with her portrayal but overall it's obvious her theories are well thought out and attempt to follow the TV series.

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In Liberation Sam couldn't get himself to kiss the leapee's husband. But if the situation had been two women then being a straight guy he'd probably have had no problem with it.
This is why I think a lesbian woman would have made for an interesting and unique leap.

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Further complicating things: we know Sam can actually conceive a child in the body of a male leapee. My guess is he could still do so while leaping into a woman, since it is his body there
This is a good point, and remember not only could he conceive a child with a male aura but pass on his own genes not the leapee's. Hence Sammy Jo's IQ. This is one of the most significant ways in which we can tell that it's his body that leaps as opposed to his soul as some of the novels portray which I find distasteful.
This also suggests what even through a woman aura he could still conceive.
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Old 09-14-2013, 04:23 PM   #19
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This is why I think a lesbian woman would have made for an interesting and unique leap.
Agreed, but I don't think they were quite ready to go there yet. The series did deal with many controversial issues but this might have been a little too risky for the time.

I think technically he could conceive with a woman, since it's his body. The issue is the logistics of the method. Sam as a straight man would naturally be inclined to act like a straight man with a woman.
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Old 09-14-2013, 05:50 PM   #20
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You're right, for the time in which the show was made it wouldn't have been appropriate to have leaped Sam into a lesbian woman. I wish the show had gone on for a couple more seasons, the subject matter that could have been introduced is intriguing.
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Old 09-15-2013, 12:09 AM   #21
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I love how much discussion this thread is having

To get back to what I had originally brought up about the language the leapee speaks and whether Sam speaking English would be understood, we have to remember that with Sam being the first known time-traveller in the world and the longest-serving, there is no way to tell what could happen to the mental state of a leaper as time goes on. What SBF wrote about "Double Identity" where Sam needed Al to translate Italian for him is completely valid, but we have to remember that that was one of his first few leaps, when Sam (apart from his Swiss-cheesed memory, which I argue is his own doing anyway) had complete control over his own brain. As time went on, not so much.

We have to remember that Sam's brain was fried in Shock Theatre, and even though they were able to reverse its effects enough so that he regained his identity and was able to leap, there is bound to be some lasting side-effects. Then in the very next leap, he simo-leapt with Al, absorbing part of his brain. We don't have any evidence to suggest that this changed even after Sam started leaping again. I haven't seen "Dreams" in a while, but I recall him having memories of the leapee.

But I think the most important example is "Lee Harvey Oswald", where Sam, not knowing any Russian beforehand, absorbed enough of Oswald's mind to speak in Russian (and to dismantle a rifle, and other things...). In future leaps Sam continued to merge minds with the leapee (even to one point taking on the leapee's persona, accent and all - "Dr Ruth"). So I believe that if Sam ever was to leap into a situation where nobody knew any English and would not understand him, Sam would be able to tap into the leapee's mind (either consciously or sub-consciously) and speak fluently in the required language.

This brings up another interesting question - do you think Sam could gain the ability to tap into the leapee's mind at will? We know from "Revenge of the Evil Leaper" that it's possible through hypnosis, but do you think Sam would be able to do it at will?
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Old 09-15-2013, 12:50 AM   #22
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You are correct Dreams is the episode in which "Mind-merging" was first introduced as an effect on the memory but it has been suggested earlier such as in 8 1/2 Months and possibly in Private Dancer when Sam starts shakin' it on the dance floor and gets an expression that seems to ask "What the hell am I doing?" and then after telling the professional dance instructor that he doesn't dance.
Most of the time however it seems to occur when the situation is traumatic.

The question of whether he can lucidly tap into a leapee's memory/mindset is a fascinating one. We know hypnosis is one way, as you said.
In particular it would have been fascinating to explore if hypnosis could have solved the dilemma in Raped. To quote the magic 8 ball: "all signs point to yes". We actually see it almost fatally succeed in Dreams when the psychiatrist tried to get Sam to put a bullet into his own head. He had completely fallen into the mindset of 9 year old Jack Stone.
I must say however that the testimony scene in Raped is amazing. Dreams is a few leaps after so hypnosis wasn't yet introduced. Then there is the flaw with this angle that Sam would probably lose his connection with Al so there would be no one to say to password. Though perhaps the leap process would clear it mind of it.
But to lucidly conjure something from the leapee's mind whether it be a language or a memory is more in Medium/Psychic territory. For example if Tamlyn were a leap she may be able to. If it's even possible for Sam to have that kind of an ability he would probably have to train his mind to open up to plains beyond earth and sense.


The Oswald episode while extremely well written and amazingly performed by Scott made little sense to me other than being one of the leaps involving a public figure which was forced upon them by the network. Why would he have leaped throughout different periods of a guy's life who couldn't even have accomplished the task of saving Jackie Kennedy(which is proven when he leaps from Oswald into a secret service agent)?
There wasn't even really an explanation as to why the mind merging was at it's most powerful here. Or was there? It's not a favorite so I've only seen it the once.
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Old 09-15-2013, 03:49 AM   #23
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You are correct Dreams is the episode in which "Mind-merging" was first introduced as an effect on the memory but it has been suggested earlier such as in 8 1/2 Months and possibly in Private Dancer when Sam starts shakin' it on the dance floor and gets an expression that seems to ask "What the hell am I doing?" and then after telling the professional dance instructor that he doesn't dance.
Most of the time however it seems to occur when the situation is traumatic.

The question of whether he can lucidly tap into a leapee's memory/mindset is a fascinating one. We know hypnosis is one way, as you said.
In particular it would have been fascinating to explore if hypnosis could have solved the dilemma in Raped. To quote the magic 8 ball: "all signs point to yes". We actually see it almost fatally succeed in Dreams when the psychiatrist tried to get Sam to put a bullet into his own head. He had completely fallen into the mindset of 9 year old Jack Stone.
I must say however that the testimony scene in Raped is amazing. Dreams is a few leaps after so hypnosis wasn't yet introduced. Then there is the flaw with this angle that Sam would probably lose his connection with Al so there would be no one to say to password. Though perhaps the leap process would clear it mind of it.
But to lucidly conjure something from the leapee's mind whether it be a language or a memory is more in Medium/Psychic territory. For example if Tamlyn were a leap she may be able to. If it's even possible for Sam to have that kind of an ability he would probably have to train his mind to open up to plains beyond earth and sense.


The Oswald episode while extremely well written and amazingly performed by Scott made little sense to me other than being one of the leaps involving a public figure which was forced upon them by the network. Why would he have leaped throughout different periods of a guy's life who couldn't even have accomplished the task of saving Jackie Kennedy(which is proven when he leaps from Oswald into a secret service agent)?
There wasn't even really an explanation as to why the mind merging was at it's most powerful here. Or was there? It's not a favorite so I've only seen it the once.
Towards the beginning of the episode they stated that Oswald wasn't in his right mind, and his loose-neurons were affecting Sam because they were crossing with his own. To try to remedy this, they put Oswald in the accelerator and tried to leap Sam's neurons back to him, but that backfired and ended up sending even more of Oswald to Sam.

From what I gather, his leaps into Oswald weren't actually to put right a wrong (although we're expected to believe that Oswald didn't kill the guy who insulted him in the bar because of Sam), they were merely to gain information to try to solve the conspiracy. I think it's Gooshie who tells Al if he can't get through to Sam, just watch what happens, because then they can at least document it. It wasn't until Sam leapt into the Secret Service Agent that he was put in a position where he could save John and Jackie (though ultimately only Jackie).

Some more interesting trivia about LHO - we see in that episode that at the Project they have fixed the handlink that Al killed in the Great Spontini, because we see Gooshie using it

Also, it appears that the LHO episode breaks the QL-Universe rules, because when Sam leaps out of Oswald to the Secret Service Agent, Al stays where he is and watches the assassination. We know from Genesis that Sam's leaping takes time, and we also find out in Mirror Image that when Sam leaps, Al just ends up back in the Imaging Chamber (or rather, the hologram around him in the Imaging Chamber fades and it looks like he's in the Imaging Chamber). So Al should not have been able to watch it. Although, I suppose since all that Sam did was travel in space, as it doesn't appear that any time passes between him switching from Oswald to the Secret Service Agent, that the leap could have been considered instantaneous as it happened in real time (i.e. no time skipping), and so maybe Al could have kept the connection that way...

As for the question if Sam could be put under hypnosis to gain the leapee's memories, he clearly could, but you're right about losing the connection with Al. So it would actually have to be someone in Sam's time hypnotising and unhypnotising him. But that would mean he'd have to either be with someone who knew he was really Sam, or convince someone he's not really the leapee. This is why I would think Sam would prefer to be able to train himself to see into the leapee's mind. It would probably take a great deal of concentration and meditation, and probably the closing off of his own mind and emotions. With Sam such an emotional and passionate person though, I'd say this would be quite difficult for him, especially if in a situation where he is under a lot of pressure (as he probably would be if he needs some knowledge of the leapee anyway).
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Old 09-15-2013, 05:00 PM   #24
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Towards the beginning of the episode they stated that Oswald wasn't in his right mind, and his loose-neurons were affecting Sam because they were crossing with his own. To try to remedy this, they put Oswald in the accelerator and tried to leap Sam's neurons back to him, but that backfired and ended up sending even more of Oswald to Sam.
Right, I remember that now. Seems like a sloppy attempt however, first of all how could the accelerator leap only neurons without taking the body with it and of course it would go awry as Oswald's mind wouldn't contain only Sam. So even if they had managed to send Sam's neurons Oswald's would still have gone with them and thus adding to the Oswald Sam already had. So that kind of seems like crappy logic.

Interesting thought though, if the leapee having an emotionally mental instability causes such a short circuiting mind merge than had shock treatment not interfered with Shock Theater being a typical leap, would Beaterman's disorder have effected Sam in much the same way? Al had described Beaterman in the waiting room as total mess.

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Also, it appears that the LHO episode breaks the QL-Universe rules, because when Sam leaps out of Oswald to the Secret Service Agent, Al stays where he is and watches the assassination. We know from Genesis that Sam's leaping takes time, and we also find out in Mirror Image that when Sam leaps, Al just ends up back in the Imaging Chamber (or rather, the hologram around him in the Imaging Chamber fades and it looks like he's in the Imaging Chamber). So Al should not have been able to watch it.
Actually while this is a valid thought, I believe this situation was acceptable as Sam hadn't actually leaped out per say as he didn't leave that point in time, just transferred his position. Therefore the lock would be able to be held. It's like if I were to walk from one side of a room to the other. That's not leaving the room thus any company I have with me would not lose sight of me.

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From what I gather, his leaps into Oswald weren't actually to put right a wrong (although we're expected to believe that Oswald didn't kill the guy who insulted him in the bar because of Sam), they were merely to gain information to try to solve the conspiracy. I think it's Gooshie who tells Al if he can't get through to Sam, just watch what happens, because then they can at least document it. It wasn't until Sam leapt into the Secret Service Agent that he was put in a position where he could save John and Jackie (though ultimately only Jackie).
Alright I see what you are saying but in this logic again the rules of the show were broken in addition to it revolving around a public figure. Because it makes little sense that Sam would actually end up leaping as initially intended, to simply analyze a significant event in history. Though I can see his needing to follow the process that led Oswald there in order to accomplish saving Jackie Kennedy.

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Some more interesting trivia about LHO - we see in that episode that at the Project they have fixed the handlink that Al killed in the Great Spontini, because we see Gooshie using it.
huh, I never noticed that. Why had Gooshi needed to use a handlink in this episode?
Another bit of LHO trivia: There is a scene between Sam and a random solider which seems unnecessary but was a kiss with history (within a kiss from history since the entire episode is one haha). That random solider was Don Bellisario. If you look closely at his uniform you can actually see 'Bellisario' across the breast.
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Old 09-15-2013, 08:56 PM   #25
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Alright I see what you are saying but in this logic again the rules of the show were broken in addition to it revolving around a public figure. Because it makes little sense that Sam would actually end up leaping as initially intended, to simply analyze a significant event in history. Though I can see his needing to follow the process that led Oswald there in order to accomplish saving Jackie Kennedy.
At first I thought he must have had a specific mission for each of his mini-leaps into Oswald, but because IIRC he only changed history in Japan, and the rest of the time he was simply reliving Oswald's life, then the only thing that makes sense is that he was there to observe. Another possibility is that the leap could be similar to the Dr Ruth leap, Sam might have leapt into Oswald so that Al could interrogate him in the future, like Sam leapt into Dr Ruth so that she could give him counselling...

Also on the subject of LHO, can you imagine what it would have been like for Oswald constantly leaping in and out of the Waiting Room?

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huh, I never noticed that. Why had Gooshi needed to use a handlink in this episode?
Another bit of LHO trivia: There is a scene between Sam and a random solider which seems unnecessary but was a kiss with history (within a kiss from history since the entire episode is one haha). That random solider was Don Bellisario. If you look closely at his uniform you can actually see 'Bellisario' across the breast.
I guess Gooshie needs it to be able to program Ziggy, it's like his keyboard and mouse. Maybe the push-buttons on Ziggy's control panel are just for communication purposes... If I had to make a guess, I'd say that Gooshie originally used the Gummi-Bear handlink while Al used the brown one, then when Al killed the brown one he had to take the Gummi Bear one for a while, and then he kept it once Gooshie fixed the brown one...
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