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Old 10-02-2013, 09:49 PM   #76
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[quote=samnal;60536]
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When in hysterics one can tend to speak impulsively words or implications that they don't intend. Certainly in her rational mind Donna wouldn't dare allow Al to be killed. She ended up sending Sam on his way didn't she? She barely pursued the argument.
I respect what you say. A person who is out of her mind - well, she wants to keep Sam home. With her. When she said, "I don't care," she literally tossed Sam's concern about Al in his face and ended any sane thought I had about the character. And I loved your story, it was very very good. I have quite a bit of stuff up on fanfiction.net and archiveofourown which I'm proud of - you are a unique writer and I thank God we are still alive as a fandom. If anyone could convince me to accept a Donna Ellissee or whatever in Sam's life, I'm sure you guys can. She is not in my stories. If you know my name as a writer then you know who I have Sam with and that is always my be all and end all.
Don't worry there is nothing wrong with disliking Donna and your point in valid about the 'I don't care" line, that can not be explained by my theory and was quite over the top. If I could quantum leap back to when the episode's script was written I would have that line removed.

Interestingly I have noticed that though there is little connection between the two arcs, those who are fans of Trilogy seem to not be so much of Donna. I am not as certain of the vise versa but I myself qualify under it. Though as I have said many times I am also a fan of Sam with Tamlyn.
Had they not reintroduced Donna in The Leap Back but instead had Tamlyn end up on the project hoping beyond hope that her psychic abilities can somehow bring home the man she fell in love with I would honestly be equally as satisfied and wouldn't have missed Donna.

What of my stories have you read?
Honestly it's been so long I can only remember a couple of the ones I posted here and thinking back on them they sound ridiculous. XD

I am not familiar with your writing, do tell, who do you have Sam with?

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Are these new zines or old zines/ I would be interested in buying them -- can you privately email me the details? buster1033@aol.com
The zines are new to me as they are to you. Blue Enigma will know more. If you are meaning the novels which are different I get them on Amazon.

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So Zoe saying "She didn't leap back" was really her confirming with Thames that Alia didn't leap back into Angel.
Actually it was Thames' line but fair enough explanation all the same.
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Old 10-03-2013, 05:59 AM   #77
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What of my stories have you read?
Honestly it's been so long I can only remember a couple of the ones I posted here and thinking back on them they sound ridiculous. XD
On a bit of an off-topic note, boy, do I know the feeling! I can't help but laugh at some of the stories I wrote when I was 17 or so. When I was about 14 I wrote a couple of QL stories, but they were more like quick sketches or something. I re-read one of them the other day and I couldn't help thinking "oh, boy... well, yeah, sure...", haha!! Maybe I'll post them someday here just for the heck of it.
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:36 AM   #78
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Don't worry there is nothing wrong with disliking Donna and your point in valid about the 'I don't care" line, that can not be explained by my theory and was quite over the top. If I could quantum leap back to when the episode's script was written I would have that line removed.
Yeah, I think that part was DPB inserting his own sentiments into the script.

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The zines are new to me as they are to you. Blue Enigma will know more. If you are meaning the novels which are different I get them on Amazon.
The zines are from the 1990s, but are still available on that site that I linked as well as eBay in some cases. As far as I know there aren't any new ones. Maybe someone else is aware of new stuff.
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:53 AM   #79
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Something that's intrigued me is the thought that Sam was meant to leap into the future in the Season 6 premiere had the show continued. But that would mean Sam wouldn't have any help at all from the project, as it would not have happened yet. Something hit me today, if Sam was to leap into the future, what would probably happen is a complete role reversal. Sam could observe what is happening in the time that he's in, and (provided it's not too distant in the future), he could somehow contact the project so that THEY can change what is to be changed (or in the case of the future, prevented)...
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Old 10-03-2013, 03:21 PM   #80
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On a bit of an off-topic note, boy, do I know the feeling! I can't help but laugh at some of the stories I wrote when I was 17 or so. When I was about 14 I wrote a couple of QL stories, but they were more like quick sketches or something. I re-read one of them the other day and I couldn't help thinking "oh, boy... well, yeah, sure...", haha!! Maybe I'll post them someday here just for the heck of it.
Oh I can't stand most of my past writing from about 3 years ago and before. The Quantum Leap fanfiction I am working on now, 'Go Figure', it was originally titled 'Thin Ice' and I had begun it a few years ago, also only managing to get to the "Oh Boy" and re-reading it, wow was it ever crapola! I wanna know what the hell I was sniffing back then! XD

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But that would mean Sam wouldn't have any help at all from the project, as it would not have happened yet.
That and as I heard it the project had not managed to re-establish contact with him after Al's hunch luck in Mirror Image. Thus supposedly he's continuing to leap from that point forward as himself.

As for Sam being in the future, it would be for the audience however in Sam's case it's more that limit of his lifetime is merely expanding. Since his present time would progress from 1999 to 2000 then 2001, 2002 etc.
My best friend uses this in her brilliant fanfic 'One Final Leap'. Sam in his 80's completes a last leap which is set somewhere in the early 2000's, it's been a while since I read it but it might have been the same year Al dies which is 2020. After this he is leaped home, the year being 2040.
(Sadly after being reunited with his beloved Donna, meets his and Al's children and grandchildren and makes love to Donna one more time Sam passes away in his sleep and is reunited with Al in the ghostly plain. That is actually what the title is referring to.)
She let me write the ending for her and I have actually begun re-writing it. XD
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Old 10-07-2013, 03:08 AM   #81
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Even though they might not have re-established contact with him, that doesn't mean that they COULDN'T. Actually, a thought I had could be that in the future, Quantum Leap has been like a prototype project for time travelling, and it has been refined (e.g. the Evil Leaper project seems to have more control than Sam's). So in the future, it could be possible that Sam could get into contact with such a future project and use them to help get future knowledge back to his own project. Thereby, Sam's own project can use the future knowledge and try to prevent what has happened by the time Sam is in
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Old 10-07-2013, 05:16 PM   #82
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Even though they might not have re-established contact with him, that doesn't mean that they COULDN'T.
If they could why wouldn't they? Al especially would never leave Sam hanging when it wasn't out of his control to. Remember: I was thinking of trying a couple of tin cans on a string.

Mirror Image however does imply that without a leapee in the waiting room they have no way of knowing when and where Sam leaps to and Al can't have 5+ more years worth of correct hunches.
Unless our earlier theory is correct and Sam was in fact in between leaps in his subconscious. Interestingly I just finished reading 'Carny Knowledge' by Ashley McConnel She is one of those who likes to include a prologue and epilogue with Sam in between leaps, drifting disembodied in some void where he speaks with the voice of GFT. In the epilogue of 'Carny Knowledge' Sam actually suggests to himself that he could in fact be drifting within his own mind. One of her more interesting angles.
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Old 10-07-2013, 05:51 PM   #83
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I am not familiar with your writing, do tell, who do you have Sam with?//quote

I have written over 1000 stories for fan fiction in QL fandom and 8 novels in the Living Year to Year Series, 3 full stand by themselves novels (all published by Mysti Frank, agentwithstyle.com. She may have back copies. I write under Doreen Tracy, and who do I have Sam with? Al, of course. Who else? :-)
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:19 PM   #84
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If they could why wouldn't they? Al especially would never leave Sam hanging when it wasn't out of his control to. Remember: I was thinking of trying a couple of tin cans on a string.
Yeah, I agree. If they could make contact with Sam they would. There's no way Al would leave Sam out there on his own if he could do anything about it.

My guess is that if Sam continued to leap as himself and there was no one in the waiting room it would probably have to be Sam who makes the contact with the project, maybe through the neural link or maybe even by leaping back to the project between leaps -- if Sam is in control of his leaping as 'Mirror Image' seems to suggest I don't see why he wouldn't be able to do that.
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:38 PM   #85
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My guess is that if Sam continued to leap as himself and there was no one in the waiting room it would probably have to be Sam who makes the contact with the project, maybe through the neural link or maybe even by leaping back to the project between leaps -- if Sam is in control of his leaping as 'Mirror Image' seems to suggest I don't see why he wouldn't be able to do that.
This is something that I want to explore in my own writing. Once Sam has control of his Leaping--whether it be that he can will himself places or that the project is able to successfully retrieve him--why couldn't he Leap home in between missions? That is usually my primary argument for those that say Sam could never Leap home because he knows there's so much good left to be done in the world. Just because he goes home, doesn't mean he can't keep on Leaping, too.
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Old 10-07-2013, 07:40 PM   #86
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Just because he goes home, doesn't mean he can't keep on Leaping, too.
I agree.

Besides, everyone deserves a vacation. Why can't Sam take one?
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Old 10-07-2013, 11:47 PM   #87
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This is something that I want to explore in my own writing. Once Sam has control of his Leaping--whether it be that he can will himself places or that the project is able to successfully retrieve him--why couldn't he Leap home in between missions? That is usually my primary argument for those that say Sam could never Leap home because he knows there's so much good left to be done in the world. Just because he goes home, doesn't mean he can't keep on Leaping, too.
You know this exactly has been going through my mind recently. It's implied that Alia was able to be retrieved between leaps so why couldn't Sam having developed and accepted the knowledge that Al the Bartender gave him start leaping home every now and then in between putting wrongs right. Hell maybe even taking turns with Al so that lives beyond the limit of Sam's lifetime can also be touched such as Tom Jerett. Mirror's Edge explores there being a line for the accelerator established (since they of course had not expected Sam to be unable to return). Two people were queued, a young ambitious doctor named David and Al.
Personally I would have loved to see Al take on more leaps and see how he would have handled certain situations differently than Sam.
It would be the perfect way to have (god I can't believe I am about to quote this biatch) "the best of both worlds", to still be able to do what he loves, help people in need and yet still have his own life at home.
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Old 10-08-2013, 12:20 AM   #88
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Personally I would have loved to see Al take on more leaps and see how he would have handled certain situations differently than Sam.
It would be the perfect way to have (god I can't believe I am about to quote this biatch) "the best of both worlds", to still be able to do what he loves, help people in need and yet still have his own life at home.
Hehehe... This is pretty much how I end my fanfiction series once Sam is brought home (which in my case, is 2003--8 years would have made a good run for the original television series). Not so much an ending, but the start of a new beginning...
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Old 10-08-2013, 01:21 AM   #89
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Such a continuation would far surpass anything involving Al and sammy-Jo as the new partnership. You can not have Al without Sam nor Quantum Leap without Sam.
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:52 PM   #90
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Yes, in my opinion Sam's mind is unconsciously blocking out Donna because if he remembered her it would make him want to go home instead of continuing his mission that he wants to keep doing. Donna is a key person on the project and his wife. There really isn't any other way to reconcile why he remembers every other key person on the project but not his own wife -- and it's the one explanation that doesn't make Sam seem like a complete jerk.

I think it's easy to explain why Sam doesn't remember Donna, for a couple of reasons. He didn't remember every key person on the project. In the very beginning, he kept getting Gooshie and Ziggy mixed up, but Al is always talking to Gooshie and telling Sam what Ziggy thinks Sam is there to do, so Sam remembers who they are. Likewise, I don't remember when Tina was first introduced, but Al talks about Tina all the time. The first time Al mentioned Verbeena Beeks, the project psychiatrist (or maybe psychologist, I don't remember), Sam thought Al was talking about some kind of drug! Sam doesn't remember Donna because Al never, ever mentions her.

Yes, he ends up remembering his parents and siblings, but they have always been a part of his life, so things that happen in his leaps trigger memories of them. And, in fact, he remembered Donna when he leapt into the professor in Star Crossed. But our Sam has no memory of being married to her because, in his life experience, he never was. It's a paradox. That's why they weren't supposed to tamper with their own lives. When he made his first leap, he wasn't married. He changed the course of his own life by interacting with Donna in Star Crossed and, when he went home in the Leap Back, somehow his altered life entered his consciousness, but he never lived that life. To me, that's the flaw. He shouldn't have known who Donna was. Well, I guess he might have recognized her, but he shouldn't have known she was his wife. He asked her how he could have ever left her, but she wasn't his wife when he left!

Whatever, it's a sticky situation, but just the fact that Al specifically never mentions Donna is, to me, reason enough to understand why Sam never remembers her. Remembering tidbits about your family is understandable, but most people would want to forget someone who left them at the altar!

(You know, there was a foreshadowing that he was married early on, in the Americanization of Machismo, at the very end when he's about to get married. He's concerned that he's not going to leap out before the "I do's" and he says "Al, I'm sweating here!" Al says something like "Not like you've never been here before." Sam gets a very concerned look and asks "Am I married?" Al quickly says "Just kidding!", but, as he turns from Sam, he rolls his eyes as if to say that he almost blew it. The conversation ends there as the bride enters and the Wedding March begins.)
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Old 10-13-2013, 12:10 PM   #91
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I think it's easy to explain why Sam doesn't remember Donna, for a couple of reasons. He didn't remember every key person on the project. In the very beginning, he kept getting Gooshie and Ziggy mixed up, but Al is always talking to Gooshie and telling Sam what Ziggy thinks Sam is there to do, so Sam remembers who they are. Likewise, I don't remember when Tina was first introduced, but Al talks about Tina all the time. The first time Al mentioned Verbeena Beeks, the project psychiatrist (or maybe psychologist, I don't remember), Sam thought Al was talking about some kind of drug! Sam doesn't remember Donna because Al never, ever mentions her.

Yes, he ends up remembering his parents and siblings, but they have always been a part of his life, so things that happen in his leaps trigger memories of them. And, in fact, he remembered Donna when he leapt into the professor in Star Crossed. But our Sam has no memory of being married to her because, in his life experience, he never was. It's a paradox. That's why they weren't supposed to tamper with their own lives. When he made his first leap, he wasn't married. He changed the course of his own life by interacting with Donna in Star Crossed and, when he went home in the Leap Back, somehow his altered life entered his consciousness, but he never lived that life. To me, that's the flaw. He shouldn't have known who Donna was. Well, I guess he might have recognized her, but he shouldn't have known she was his wife. He asked her how he could have ever left her, but she wasn't his wife when he left!

Whatever, it's a sticky situation, but just the fact that Al specifically never mentions Donna is, to me, reason enough to understand why Sam never remembers her. Remembering tidbits about your family is understandable, but most people would want to forget someone who left them at the altar!
I've already very specifically commented on why I think 'Star Crossed' is terrible and why it makes Sam look terrible, so I don't want to harp on that, lol. In general the Donna story arc is flawed writing and both episodes are flawed. Certainly the continuity is flawed. No doubt they weren't thinking at the time about TV shows being on DVD and that people would be able to watch them hundreds of times and analyze them. So they didn't worry about it.

While early in his leaping Sam forgot the key people and got them mixed up, post 'The Leap Back' he didn't anymore, so he should have had no problem with remembering Donna either at that point since she was there when he went back -- in my opinion. I agree, it's definitely a flaw in the writing that he doesn't remember both timelines, pre-'Star Crossed' and post-'Star Crossed' -- or like you mentioned he should remember just the first timeline if he's only remembering one of them. Maybe it is only because Al doesn't mention her - but that's a problem right there. The whole 'he couldn't do his job if he knew about me so you're not to tell him' doesn't work for me for so many reasons it would be another conversation. Also, since Sam still doesn't remember her or even know about her in 'Mirror Image' then it means he chose to never leap home without knowledge of a wife he's abandoned at home. He's therefore made a choice that was not completely informed, which is also a problem for me. And if it's because he's created a paradox by tampering with his own life then he needs to fix that -- because it wasn't only his life that he tampered with. He tampered with hers, too, and it's not like he had her permission.

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(You know, there was a foreshadowing that he was married early on, in the Americanization of Machismo, at the very end when he's about to get married. He's concerned that he's not going to leap out before the "I do's" and he says "Al, I'm sweating here!" Al says something like "Not like you've never been here before." Sam gets a very concerned look and asks "Am I married?" Al quickly says "Just kidding!", but, as he turns from Sam, he rolls his eyes as if to say that he almost blew it. The conversation ends there as the bride enters and the Wedding March begins.)
I always thought Al was just pulling Sam's leg at the end of 'The Americanization of Machiko'. He is very careful throughout the series about what he does and does not reveal to Sam.
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Old 10-13-2013, 03:48 PM   #92
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I think it's easy to explain why Sam doesn't remember Donna, for a couple of reasons. He didn't remember every key person on the project. In the very beginning, he kept getting Gooshie and Ziggy mixed up, but Al is always talking to Gooshie and telling Sam what Ziggy thinks Sam is there to do, so Sam remembers who they are. Likewise, I don't remember when Tina was first introduced, but Al talks about Tina all the time. The first time Al mentioned Verbeena Beeks, the project psychiatrist (or maybe psychologist, I don't remember), Sam thought Al was talking about some kind of drug! Sam doesn't remember Donna because Al never, ever mentions her.

Yes, he ends up remembering his parents and siblings, but they have always been a part of his life, so things that happen in his leaps trigger memories of them. And, in fact, he remembered Donna when he leapt into the professor in Star Crossed. But our Sam has no memory of being married to her because, in his life experience, he never was. It's a paradox. That's why they weren't supposed to tamper with their own lives. When he made his first leap, he wasn't married. He changed the course of his own life by interacting with Donna in Star Crossed and, when he went home in the Leap Back, somehow his altered life entered his consciousness, but he never lived that life. To me, that's the flaw. He shouldn't have known who Donna was. Well, I guess he might have recognized her, but he shouldn't have known she was his wife. He asked her how he could have ever left her, but she wasn't his wife when he left!

Whatever, it's a sticky situation, but just the fact that Al specifically never mentions Donna is, to me, reason enough to understand why Sam never remembers her. Remembering tidbits about your family is understandable, but most people would want to forget someone who left them at the altar!

(You know, there was a foreshadowing that he was married early on, in the Americanization of Machismo, at the very end when he's about to get married. He's concerned that he's not going to leap out before the "I do's" and he says "Al, I'm sweating here!" Al says something like "Not like you've never been here before." Sam gets a very concerned look and asks "Am I married?" Al quickly says "Just kidding!", but, as he turns from Sam, he rolls his eyes as if to say that he almost blew it. The conversation ends there as the bride enters and the Wedding March begins.)
It happens that I gave pretty much the same explanation in the thread for The Leap Back. This and because Deborah Pratt was unhappy with the episode and preferred Sam in a serious in-leap relationship, hence Abigail.

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I always thought Al was just pulling Sam's leg at the end of 'The Americanization of Machiko'. He is very careful throughout the series about what he does and does not reveal to Sam.
Why then did he get this expression after saying "just kidding" which clearly stated that he'd very nearly slipped? True he's very careful but he's a human being he can make mistakes.
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Old 10-13-2013, 03:53 PM   #93
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Why then did he get this expression after saying "just kidding" which clearly stated that he'd very nearly slipped? True he's very careful but he's a human being he can make mistakes.
Of course. I had just always thought that he was intentionally kidding with Sam.

Regarding memory of the timelines I always thought that based on 'Honeymoon Express' Al remembered both timelines, maybe due to the neural link with Ziggy and Sam. So it seemed to me that Sam should remember both too, since he's part of the same link. In which case it seems to me that Sam should remember both timelines with Donna.
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Old 10-13-2013, 06:55 PM   #94
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Actually no, the difference is that the new timeline can effect Al because he's there to experience it. Examples: The chairmen of the committee becoming Diane McBride, his walking out of the imagining chamber to find Donna suddenly at the project. Though we don't actually see that last the fact that he didn't know the outcome of Sam's actions straight away suggests that he is effected only after exiting the imaging chamber. Please note the word 'SUGGESTS'; I am well aware that Al could have simply been making a point as well as honoring his promise to Donna. I am working with the message I got from it and I am not alone. Two of the novels (Mirror's Edge and Knights of the Morningstar) explore Al having been heavily effected by leaving the imagining chamber and finding Donna suddenly at the project.
Ashely McConnell while she doesn't use Donna does use the perspective in Random Measures that leaving the imagining chamber is what triggers the effect of a project change on Al.
The difference with Diane McBride is that Al was not in the imagining chamber when the result appeared but right in front of it.

This however is unexplainably contradicted in season 5 when he reveals a memory of a conversation he had with Sammy Jo seconds after the change that put her at the project was made. A memory he somehow had before leaving the imagining chamber and actually experiencing the change.
I am going to ignore this.

I kinda went over this as well in the The Leap Back thread. Sam can barely keep track of the original timeline. His memory is altered with each leap and just as there are some which are always maintained such as Elk Ridge there are also some which are never included such as the specific sciences of the project nor most likely the staff other than the names and their functions which he hears from Al. This is supported by The Leap Back as we see him retrieving his full memories while stuck in the imagining chamber.
Example: "Ziggy the parallel...the parallel hybrid computer that I designed to run project Quantum Leap."
"Oh the computer with the big ego."
"Right and installing that ego was a breakthrough, without it Ziggy would be just another big number cruncher...AL! I'm getting my memory back!"

It's also frequently (and hilariously) pointed out that Sam can't even remember the leaping rules he himself set to ensure the safety of himself and the present/future.
It wasn't until he re-entered the present time that his full memory returned somewhat like Al stepping out of the imagining chamber after a change is made and we don't know that Sam didn't still remember Donna standing him up at the alter.

So true he SHOULD remember both timelines but I don't think he CAN due to his position.
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Old 10-13-2013, 07:12 PM   #95
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Actually no, the difference is that the new timeline can effect Al because he's there to experience it. Examples: The chairmen of the committee becoming Diane McBride, his walking out of the imagining chamber to find Donna suddenly at the project. Though we don't actually see that last the fact that he didn't know the outcome of Sam's actions straight away suggests that he is effected only after exiting the imaging chamber. Please note the word 'SUGGESTS'; I am well aware that Al could have simply been making a point as well as honoring his promise to Donna. I am working with the message I got from it and I am not alone. Two of the novels (Mirror's Edge and Knights of the Morningstar) explore Al having been heavily effected by leaving the imagining chamber and finding Donna suddenly at the project.
Ashely McConnell while she doesn't use Donna does use the perspective in Random Measures that leaving the imagining chamber is what triggers the effect of a project change on Al.
The difference with Diane McBride is that Al was not in the imagining chamber when the result appeared but right in front of it.

This however is unexplainably contradicted in season 5 when he reveals a memory of a conversation he had with Sammy Jo seconds after the change that put her at the project was made. A memory he somehow had before leaving the imagining chamber and actually experiencing the change.
I am going to ignore this.

I kinda went over this as well in the The Leap Back thread. Sam can barely keep track of the original timeline. His memory is altered with each leap and just as there are some which are always maintained such as Elk Ridge there are also some which are never included such as the specific sciences of the project nor most likely the staff other than the names and their functions which he hears from Al. This is supported by The Leap Back as we see him retrieving his full memories while stuck in the imagining chamber.
Example: "Ziggy the parallel...the parallel hybrid computer that I designed to run project Quantum Leap."
"Oh the computer with the big ego."
"Right and installing that ego was a breakthrough, without it Ziggy would be just another big number cruncher...AL! I'm getting my memory back!"
It's also frequently (and hilariously) pointed out that Sam can't even remember the leaping rules he himself set to ensure the safety of himself and the present/future.
It wasn't until he re-entered the present time that his full memory returned somewhat like Al stepping out of the imagining chamber after a change is made and we don't know that Sam didn't still remember Donna standing him up at the alter.

So true he SHOULD remember both timelines but I don't think he CAN due to his position.
I can see your point that due to Sam's position maybe he can't remember both timelines even though he should. The theory of being aware of both timelines in the imaging chamber but not after leaving it or vice versa is an interesting one. Since this is a time travel show some of the problems with the continuity, including what they do or do not remember, can easily be explained away with changing timelines, where the rules actually are changing and affecting how the project and quantum leaping works. There is an episode where Sam does remember in leap that he lost Tom and got him back. I can't remember which episode it was but he says something along the lines of 'I lost my brother but I got him back'. So that's an example where while leaping he remembers or at least has knowledge of two different timelines, so that's another contradiction.

As the series went on it seemed to me that Sam became less Swiss cheesed in leap though, and by 'Mirror Image' he didn't seem to be Swiss cheesed at all. That's how I perceived it, other people may have seen it differently.
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Old 10-13-2013, 09:22 PM   #96
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There is an episode where Sam does remember in leap that he lost Tom and got him back. I can't remember which episode it was but he says something along the lines of 'I lost my brother but I got him back'. So that's an example where while leaping he remembers or at least has knowledge of two different timelines, so that's another contradiction.
I forgot about this, but you are right. Rebel Without a Clue, Ernie the kindly diner owner whose waiting for his son's safe return from Korea inquires if Sam (Shane) has ever lost someone.
"Yeah...but I got him back."
It seemed the memory had actually just come to him in that moment as there was a pause between the two answers.

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As the series went on it seemed to me that Sam became less Swiss cheesed in leap though, and by 'Mirror Image' he didn't seem to be Swiss cheesed at all. That's how I perceived it, other people may have seen it differently.
I agree with this. It's something I have noticed as well though it's to a certain extent. As I pointed out before there are still some memories which seemingly by the choice of GFT never resurface. It's somewhat clear that his memories of the project are in fact actually memories of what Al has told him about the project which is very different.

And I know I use this a lot but Mirror's Edge explores that while Sam can remember making a change such as saving Tom, he has no memory of existing in a timeline where Tom came home from Vietnam and if you want to get really complex technically he didn't. Sam himself basically explains that he remembers that Tom had been killed and saving him but has no memory of greeting his safe return, what career he went into, attending each other's weddings, nieces and nephews from him and other such things. Personally though I am unsure how to explain it, I make sense of this.
(Hell I can't help that this novel explores such brilliant concepts XD)

Now in regards to Mirror Image there can be controversy over the explanation of that unusual leap. Personally I like the one Lightning McQueenie came up with that it was in fact in between leaps within his subconscious. This would explain all the familiar faces from previous leaps as well as those with nicknames matching the names of his staff.
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Old 10-13-2013, 10:59 PM   #97
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The whole 'he couldn't do his job if he knew about me so you're not to tell him' doesn't work for me for so many reasons it would be another conversation. Also, since Sam still doesn't remember her or even know about her in 'Mirror Image' then it means he chose to never leap home without knowledge of a wife he's abandoned at home. He's therefore made a choice that was not completely informed, which is also a problem for me. And if it's because he's created a paradox by tampering with his own life then he needs to fix that -- because it wasn't only his life that he tampered with. He tampered with hers, too, and it's not like he had her permission.
OH MY GOSH, I am so loving you right now! I don't buy Donna's reasoning one bit, myself. I almost want to say that I think Sam might actually do what he did BETTER if he knew he had a wife waiting for him at home. Almost like a driving force, making him want to make his future better for his family and wanting to do an even better job to put him that much closer to the day that he did leap home. And if he was actually able to control his own leaps by the end of the series, then as we discussed earlier, what's to keep him from going home between each leap to be with his family? There was just so much untapped potential in that show sometimes, it's driven me to fanfiction to right what the writers once put wrong.
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Old 10-13-2013, 11:17 PM   #98
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Regarding memory of the timelines I always thought that based on 'Honeymoon Express' Al remembered both timelines, maybe due to the neural link with Ziggy and Sam. So it seemed to me that Sam should remember both too, since he's part of the same link. In which case it seems to me that Sam should remember both timelines with Donna.
I agree with this 100%. In fact, I explore the theory quite often in my writing regarding the people back at the project as Sam keeps changing the past and therefore their future. In my stories, only those tied in through Ziggy somehow are able to remember the changes. For the others at the project, like Dr. Beeks or Gooshie, the change in their minds seems instantaneous and they don't remember the former timeline at all. Only Ziggy can help to keep everyone in check. Even so, I write that as time goes on the new change becomes more prominent in the minds of those connected through Ziggy, while the old timeline fades more into the background like a dream, but hopefully, is never completely forgotten. Sam's all swiss-cheesed, so he's no help in remembering multiple timelines all the time, but I'd like to think that once he got home, that like Al, Sam would remember how he changed things as well as how they used to be.

Another thing that I don't buy in The Leap Back is how Sam rapidly forgets everything that happened over the past four years of his leaping. I'd like to think that Sam eventually remembers everything that he's done. Sam thrives on his accomplishments. Of knowing the satisfaction of a job well done. I want him to remember all of the people he's helped and look back on that with pride. Once home, he might not remember everything at first, but there will be things in his life that remind him of certain Leaps and so long as he doesn't leap again to scramble his memory up, his photographic memory should preserve them from then on. I actually like to think that all those voice overs of him narrating his adventures throughout the series is actually Sam writing his memoirs once he returns home. It's a happy thought in my mind and I like to keep it that way.
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Old 10-14-2013, 02:05 AM   #99
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OH MY GOSH, I am so loving you right now! I don't buy Donna's reasoning one bit, myself. I almost want to say that I think Sam might actually do what he did BETTER if he knew he had a wife waiting for him at home. Almost like a driving force, making him want to make his future better for his family and wanting to do an even better job to put him that much closer to the day that he did leap home. And if he was actually able to control his own leaps by the end of the series, then as we discussed earlier, what's to keep him from going home between each leap to be with his family? There was just so much untapped potential in that show sometimes, it's driven me to fanfiction to right what the writers once put wrong.
Personally I believe this as well, as does Scott. That knowing Donna supports him would give him the confidence he needs to know he isn't hurting her and the strength to continue. She could have even taken turns with Al as the observer so that she could still spend time with him even if they couldn't touch, kiss or make love.
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:28 AM   #100
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I agree with this 100%. In fact, I explore the theory quite often in my writing regarding the people back at the project as Sam keeps changing the past and therefore their future. In my stories, only those tied in through Ziggy somehow are able to remember the changes. For the others at the project, like Dr. Beeks or Gooshie, the change in their minds seems instantaneous and they don't remember the former timeline at all. Only Ziggy can help to keep everyone in check. Even so, I write that as time goes on the new change becomes more prominent in the minds of those connected through Ziggy, while the old timeline fades more into the background like a dream, but hopefully, is never completely forgotten. Sam's all swiss-cheesed, so he's no help in remembering multiple timelines all the time, but I'd like to think that once he got home, that like Al, Sam would remember how he changed things as well as how they used to be.
Yeah, I like this interpretation and this is kind of the way I have it in my head. I go a little further with it, that since after 'Mirror Image' Sam is less Swiss cheesed [to me he seems that way in the episode] he should be able to remember things about his life, from both timelines, at least when he needs that information for a specific leap. In 'A Leap for Lisa' he's able to hold onto the memory of Al by sheer will after history changes and Al is executed, and he does it even while it's threatening to slip away. He remembers that Al was important to him, that Al and Tina were lovers in the other timeline, etc. So I think Sam is definitely capable of that.

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Another thing that I don't buy in The Leap Back is how Sam rapidly forgets everything that happened over the past four years of his leaping. I'd like to think that Sam eventually remembers everything that he's done. Sam thrives on his accomplishments. Of knowing the satisfaction of a job well done. I want him to remember all of the people he's helped and look back on that with pride. Once home, he might not remember everything at first, but there will be things in his life that remind him of certain Leaps and so long as he doesn't leap again to scramble his memory up, his photographic memory should preserve them from then on.
I agree. I wasn't really on board with the reverse Swiss cheese effect either. Sam should know what he's accomplished, and I think 'Mirror Image' kind of points to that, even though he's still leaping and not home. Plus I don't think it's right that Al should have to bear the burden of having all the knowledge alone. He needs a break too.

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I actually like to think that all those voice overs of him narrating his adventures throughout the series is actually Sam writing his memoirs once he returns home. It's a happy thought in my mind and I like to keep it that way.
I had the same thought about the narration being Sam either writing his memoirs or reporting back to the committee or maybe even telling his children and grandchildren about his experiences. I don't think Sam is the type of guy who goes around narrating his life just because. And this is also why I think we don't have to necessarily accept that Sam never returned home. The way things stood at the exact end of the leap to Beth, Sam never returned home, just as at the end of 'The Leap Home' Sam made the winning basket but Tom still died -- until the next leap. So after he left Beth? The last screen can be looked like any other end of a leap. Instead of Al reading off the hand link, telling us what happened at the end of this particular leap after Sam has made the changes, we get black screens. And with the next leap things can change again.
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