222 M.I.A.

M.I.A.


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Jumping in on a thread nobody has posted on in awhile. This episode and The Leap Home episode are a couple of the most moving ones. It gave me a new perspective on Al's character. On the surface there is this womanizer but underneath is someone who has had to deal with a very painful past. I wanted to give him a big hug and make things okay for him. I understand the comments about how it's not right Sam would tell Al he can't change things for himself but changes things for him and Donna to get married. However, Sam does have partial amnesia and through most of the series doesn't remember he is married or remember the events in the different leaps clearly. And as has been pointed out, Al wasn't up front about Beth being his first wife; Sam was much more straightforward about what he was doing. The tables are turned somewhat in The Leap Home when Al tells Sam some things weren't meant to be and he can't change things. It makes the characters more human to have them want to make things better for themselves and/or their families.
 
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This is a very emotional episode and the ending was very moving. But overall I think it's flawed. The emotion is driven by Sam's refusal to try to change Beth and Al's past, yet the very next episode makes something of a hypocrite out of him. I also don't see the general harm in Sam simply telling Beth "I have it on good authority, through my police contacts, that Al is still alive." Beth still might have married the lawyer guy, but that would have been a much more practical approach then whatever Al was trying to get Sam to do, and far less harmless.

Ironically, I think Beth might have ended up marrying Dirk because her "ghost dance" with Al convinced her he really was dead after all and was saying goodbye to her!

Finally, the actor who played Dirk looked like too much of a skeeve for Beth to marry.
 
This is a very emotional episode and the ending was very moving. But overall I think it's flawed. The emotion is driven by Sam's refusal to try to change Beth and Al's past, yet the very next episode makes something of a hypocrite out of him. I also don't see the general harm in Sam simply telling Beth "I have it on good authority, through my police contacts, that Al is still alive." Beth still might have married the lawyer guy, but that would have been a much more practical approach then whatever Al was trying to get Sam to do, and far less harmless.

I like this episode and it is extremely moving but I agree with you that it's flawed. Both for the reasons you've given and also just story-wise. The Al/Beth part of the story is very compelling and emotional. I mean, we know who Beth's husband is as soon as she tells Dirk her last name, even though Sam doesn't, so we're waiting for the moment when it's revealed to him and meanwhile Al is slowly coming apart at the seams through the episode. But the other part of the leap, the Skaggs backstory is kind of meh to me. It's not really well-developed -- it's really just there to drive the other part of the story.

Finally, the actor who played Dirk looked like too much of a skeeve for Beth to marry.

lol, he really does. And of course he really is. He knew Beth was married, that her husband was MIA and he took advantage of her vulnerability.
 
The Al/Beth part of the story is very compelling and emotional. I mean, we know who Beth's husband is as soon as she tells Dirk her last name, even though Sam doesn't.

Do we? Maybe if you've watched later episodes in the series before, but I don't believe that any point in the first two seasons before this episode Al's last name is ever actually used...
 
Do we? Maybe if you've watched later episodes in the series before, but I don't believe that any point in the first two seasons before this episode Al's last name is ever actually used...

I'll have to watch 'Honeymoon Express' again but I'm pretty sure he is addressed as Admiral Calavicci at least once in that episode. In which case, yes we do know. But it's been a while since I've watched that episode though, so maybe I'm wrong about it being mentioned in it -- maybe he's only addressed as Admiral.
 
I'll have to watch 'Honeymoon Express' again but I'm pretty sure he is addressed as Admiral Calavicci at least once in that episode. In which case, yes we do know. But it's been a while since I've watched that episode though, so maybe I'm wrong about it being mentioned in it -- maybe he's only addressed as Admiral.

I'm pretty sure he's only referred to as "Admiral" :)
 
This is a very emotional episode and the ending was very moving. But overall I think it's flawed. The emotion is driven by Sam's refusal to try to change Beth and Al's past, yet the very next episode makes something of a hypocrite out of him. I also don't see the general harm in Sam simply telling Beth "I have it on good authority, through my police contacts, that Al is still alive." Beth still might have married the lawyer guy, but that would have been a much more practical approach then whatever Al was trying to get Sam to do, and far less harmless.

Ironically, I think Beth might have ended up marrying Dirk because her "ghost dance" with Al convinced her he really was dead after all and was saying goodbye to her!

Finally, the actor who played Dirk looked like too much of a skeeve for Beth to marry.

Actually this approach has the flaw that Al was listed as M.I.A for a reason. It means the appropriate authorities (who I don't see why an undercover cop would have connections with or the clearance to receive such information, not to mention how the hell would Jake know the name of Beth's husband, the whole mystery of the episode is that it's never mentioned) are unaware of his current location and activity thus nor whether he's dead or alive.
The only thing I can see this accomplishing is frightening her because this is information there is no way Jake or even Sam (since she doesn't know him either) should know.

It does however bug me how he ran out on poor Beth upon seeing the photo on the mantel which revealed Al as her M.I.A husband. Even in his refusal to try to reunite them he could have still kept his outing with her. Though this would have prevented him from his true assignment to save Scaggs despite that he obviously leaps upon success, the series never directly clarifies whether or not Sam could still leap if he fails. This also leads to a debate between the importance of Al and Beth's marriage vs. Scaggs' life since without having the identity of Beth's husband sooner, by the time he did Sam was forced to choose between them.

It annoys me quite a bit how this episode makes a huge hypocrite out of Sam even considering that he does not know that he'd succeeded with Donna. Still he made the effort to reunite himself with his own wife yet refused to give the same to his dearest friend.
Al is a damn loyal friend to both he and Donna to have kept his mouth shut on that subject in this particular situation. Though honestly I would have liked to see him throw at least the attempt in his face. Then in the very following episode Sam once again makes a hypocrite of himself and this time Al does throw it in his face as well as the fact that he was blessed with the chance to even see his family again, good for him.
Actually in that very same scene Sam angrily shouts: "Why can I help total strangers but not the people I love!?" when he in fact had just refused that chance.

Al is an amazing man and friend to not only never throw Sam's hypocrisy in his face but to also even at his own self sacrifice support Sam's personal quests of both Donna and Tom. It saddens me that Sam could have been so selfish particularly with Beth and Tom but it just shows us that he's not perfect and that he like Al had carried some deep scars from his losses. Something the two men have in common.

Though made several years ago this is an excellent point:
JuliaM said:
Al was deliberately decieving Sam about what he was supposed to do. Yes, there are episodes where it can be said that Sam acts selfishly to change something for his own best interest but when that happens he's very up front about it.

It's true that in Sam's personal pursuits of Donna and Tom he didn't lose sight of the person he was sent to help and straight up told Al what he was doing. In Vietnam it's not actually clear what the actual task was though the novel Mirror's Edge suggests that he could have in fact been there for Tom.

Al certainly made a mess of his attempt by not being straight forward with Sam and not making him aware of the true task. In fact doing so would have made Sam more likely to have been able to accomplish both getting Beth to wait for Al as well as save Scaggs but it doesn't excuse that Sam refused to try for his best friend what he bent the rules to recover for himself. As the saying goes 'two wrongs don't make a right'.
Not that Sam would have been able to accomplish it by that point even without Scaggs' life in danger since it would have been beneficial in the beginning to have introduced Jake as a friend of Al's, the honest approach he used in Mirror Image. It proves that the knowledge that Al is alive is believable to Beth coming from a friend of his.
Sam had come on very strongly upon first approaching her as Jake and even straight up (falsely) admitted to snooping into her records. Then he'd barely gotten away with the calalillies. She was pretty alarmed by his knowledge of something as simple as her favorite flower. So even by the point in which he'd gotten Al's identity she still could have been deciding whether not she trusted him. If he'd told her he knew Al was alive it would have likely come across as cruel or frightening as I had stated of iMonrey's suggestion.

This in fact is what kept Sam from succeeding here and the perfect set ups of each of Beth's run ins with Dirk is what caused him to doubt the attempt. The PQL rules were not at play here. There truly seemed to be no coincidence in Dirk's appearances including through his mother but what Sam refused to consider was Al's suggestion of the Devil working as God does through Sam.
Later the season 3 episode The Boogym*n does seem to support this.
"Who gave you the right to go bungling around in time, putting right what I made wrong!?"
We then have the evil leapers to support another force opposite the one which had enlisted Sam effecting lives. Whom we are even introduced to while they are on a mission to destroy a marriage. It could even be possible that Dirk was Alia. The line "She's (his mother) not sweet, she has a single son and wants grandchildren" is so suggestive it's just twisted enough to have come from someone intending to steer Beth away from Al.
(Though if Sam had touched Dirk at some point, which I don't recall for certain we'd have known).
Think about it, the fact that Al was even a POW was certainly not God nor a coincidence.
So while Sam was not in the wrong for this view, I don't buy that excuse for not trying.

The fact that Sam was later able to amend this alone proves that it was in fact achievable and a wrong. Sam is not able to make a change that isn't meant to be made.
Let's take Leap of Faith for example. Why wouldn't he have just been leaped in early enough to stop Tony from committing the murders? Then there'd be no trial for him to stand and thus a murderer is not made of Father Mac. Here's why, Tony's life was turned around when it had been threatened and then spared and Father Mac's eyes were opened when he had nearly taken a life. He begun rehab and made something of his life as well. Tony needed to see through the eyes of his victims to realize his wrong and Father Mac needed to be in the wrong to see what was right. To see how far gone had strayed from God and be lead back to Him. Recall he'd thanked Sam for stopping him from killing Tony.
Let's also remember that Sam was not able to save his father and sister.

I am glad that Sam was able to amend his failure to Al. It may have been Al's own fault not Sam's that the initial attempt was not doable in the end but Sam had no excuse to not have wanted to try. It's like Diane McBride had said when she'd replaced the chairmen of the committee: "Whether or not they succeed is not so important as the fact that we try."

In fact I wrote a short story several years ago about the day Al and Beth meet Sam at Star Bright and Beth who had believed the man who came to her in '69 and told her Al was alive in Vietnam had been a dream was mesmerized to find herself standing before him. She even confronts him about it.

blue enigma said:
I'll have to watch 'Honeymoon Express' again but I'm pretty sure he is addressed as Admiral Calavicci at least once in that episode.

Not he is not. He is addressed as simply 'Admiral'.
 
OK. Predictable? Over-the-top? Weird? Desperating? No clue of what's going on and why everyone and everything is acting the way they are? 3 acts out of 4 and you may still believe some of that... then comes the final BLAST and you realize that it never even mattered what you may have thought before because now you know that this isn't just an instant good episode, but a instant GREAT one with nothing but pure genius in it.

The best Quantum Leap episode EVER? Now, that's a hard one. I must say that, while this isn't my particular favorite QL episode, I reckon that it may just be the BEST one ever made. Nothing ever went wrong. Always a delight to watch. One episode my mother saw with me. She was in tears when Al disappeared with that leaping effect after he had kissed Beth and she whispered his name and began to cry. So was I.

An episode that developed Al to the fullest. If he hadn't grown on you before, with this episode he definitely did. It explained so much about him as a character, his behavior, his reasons, his ideas, his way of life, his roots themselves, and not only in the context of this episode, either. So emotionally intense. Very hard not to cry. Even some of the photography at the end is handled in such a way that it makes you produce tears and then hold them in your eyes, but masterfully crafted so you couldn't miss anything on the screen because of blurriness or something.

The episode that marked the rest of the series, especially some of the dark atmosphere that was very present and alive throughout most of the 3rd and 4th seasons. Best work by Donald P. Bellisario.

My rating: Excellent. Just because I couldn't rate it any higher than that. Not exaggerating.

My review of the season: Not my favorite one, even though I loved most of the episodes. Even "Sea Bride", the only one I voted "fair", I think, always had something good to offer. Definitely the season that had the most classic trademarks. Any episode people can recognize, even people who were never fans of these series, is without any doubt from this season.
 
I really didn't expect the twist about Beth so I really felt sorry for both her and Al. He is usually the comic relief part of the story,I mean except the parts he reveals his background.Yet this one is the most intense thing about him I have seen so far ( well,I had to change my mind after watching Leap Home P 2)

Also I have never seen a young Dean Stockwell until that frame
He was so cute back in the day :)
http://i.imgur.com/Z2KPNmn.jpg
 
I really didn't expect the twist about Beth so I really felt sorry for both her and Al. He is usually the comic relief part of the story,I mean except the parts he reveals his background.Yet this one is the most intense thing about him I have seen so far ( well,I had to change my mind after watching Leap Home P 2)

Also I have never seen a young Dean Stockwell until that frame
He was so cute back in the day :)
http://i.imgur.com/Z2KPNmn.jpg

If you are interested in seeing the young Dean Stockwell in that photo in action, see A Long Day's Journey Into Night. He can also be seen as a child in the 1949 version of Secret Garden.
 
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If you are interested in seeing the young Dean Stockwell in that photo in action, see A Long Day's Journey Into Night. He can also be seen as a child in the 1949 version of a Secret Garden.
Last night I watched that film and I must say that he was amazing.The movie requires your full attention while watching it with lots of dialogue.

Also I didn't know that he was a child actor! In fact I didn't know much about Mr Stockwell other than as "Brother Cavil" from BSG. Because I hated the character passionately,it took me some time to accept him as a good guy :) if that makes any sense
 
Last night I watched that film and I must say that he was amazing.The movie requires your full attention while watching it with lots of dialogue.

Also I didn't know that he was a child actor! In fact I didn't know much about Mr Stockwell other than as "Brother Cavil" from BSG. Because I hated the character passionately,it took me some time to accept him as a good guy :) if that makes any sense

Off-topic: If you want to see Dean as a child, try to get "The Boy With Green Hair". It's a movie from 1948. I haven't seen this myself in its entirety, except maybe for a couple of scenes, but they say it's a dramatic comedy. He actually plays the boy with the green hair and for what I've read on the internet it's considered a classic.
 
Off-topic: If you want to see Dean as a child, try to get "The Boy With Green Hair". It's a movie from 1948. I haven't seen this myself in its entirety, except maybe for a couple of scenes, but they say it's a dramatic comedy. He actually plays the boy with the green hair and for what I've read on the internet it's considered a classic.

Another young Dean Stockwell movie is "Down to the Sea in Ships" :)
 
Off-topic: If you want to see Dean as a child, try to get "The Boy With Green Hair". It's a movie from 1948. I haven't seen this myself in its entirety, except maybe for a couple of scenes, but they say it's a dramatic comedy. He actually plays the boy with the green hair and for what I've read on the internet it's considered a classic.


Another young Dean Stockwell movie is "Down to the Sea in Ships" :)

I am definitely going to check those out. I saw the promotional stills from the movies and he was so adorable! A big awww=)

Not to go on off-topic again,is there a specific section for actor's other works here? Only the characters board took my attention.
 
I am definitely going to check those out. I saw the promotional stills from the movies and he was so adorable! A big awww=)

Not to go on off-topic again,is there a specific section for actor's other works here? Only the characters board took my attention.

Down to Sea in Ships is a really good one.

There is an off-topic section, so you can check there for information on the actor's other works. An even better source, if you haven't already checked it out is the IMDB site (www.imdb.com). Type in the name to get to each actor's page, which has their list of work, bios, trivia, awards they've won/been nominated for, etc. Scott and Dean's pages are pretty comprehensive.
 
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Off-topic: If you want to see Dean as a child, try to get "The Boy With Green Hair". It's a movie from 1948. I haven't seen this myself in its entirety, except maybe for a couple of scenes, but they say it's a dramatic comedy. He actually plays the boy with the green hair and for what I've read on the internet it's considered a classic.

Oh I have heard of that film, my best friend saw it.
Also there is Kim about a young boy (Dean) living on the streets of India.
I haven't seen this or most of the films named here, I've seen more of Scott's films than Deans. But Kim is supposed to be well done.
 
I haven't seen this or most of the films named here, I've seen more of Scott's films than Deans. But Kim is supposed to be well done.
I have also heard of Kim but haven't seen it.
Which Scott movies could you recommend then? I don't know I can ever accept him as a bad guy with Sam Beckett in my mind :D

Back to the episode,Al says he didn't know anybody was going to hurt. Didn't Ziggy present a guess about Sam's leaps everytime? Why he didn't know about Sam's partner? Because Beth was in the picture?
 
Al says he didn't know anybody was going to hurt. Didn't Ziggy present a guess about Sam's leaps everytime? Why he didn't know about Sam's partner? Because Beth was in the picture?

Al never ran any other scenarios. He assumed Sam was there for Beth because he was so focused on that. And Ziggy may not have necessarily offered other scenarios if Al didn't ask.
 
Having had a look on IMDB, the most surprising Dean Stockwell role I saw was the voice of Duke Nukem in Captain Planet :p
 
I have also heard of Kim but haven't seen it.
Which Scott movies could you recommend then? I don't know I can ever accept him as a bad guy with Sam Beckett in my mind :D

If you don't want to see Scott as a bad guy than pretty much the only film I know of NOT to see is In The Name of the People. I only once caught the last half hour or so myself but that is all I needed to find it an uncomfortably tragic film. Basically he murdered a teenage girl and is given the death sentence by lethal injection. To see Sam Beckett in that position was quite unsettling for me.

Those I DO recommend are Lord of Illusions , Above Suspicion and Blue Smoke. I believe Netforce was also good but I can't recall it really. He's also enjoyable in the TV series Murphy Brown where his character has a lot of Al in his personality.

Anyway I apologize I believe I begun the discussion that steered us off topic here.


ladystoneheart said:
Back to the episode,Al says he didn't know anybody was going to hurt. Didn't Ziggy present a guess about Sam's leaps everytime? Why he didn't know about Sam's partner? Because Beth was in the picture?

"I didn't run any scenarios through Ziggy except mine."
This suggests that Ziggy doesn't deliver until asked. We see in The Leap Back that she tends to perform on her own pretenses and is quite the smart a**. After all she does have a big ego.
 
"I didn't run any scenarios through Ziggy except mine."
This suggests that Ziggy doesn't deliver until asked. We see in The Leap Back that she tends to perform on her own pretenses and is quite the smart a**. After all she does have a big ego.

It's quite possible that while Ziggy has access to several databases, the information can only be processed and likely events needing changing and the likely outcomes can only be predicted if someone runs the program with that information as the input. It's like we in the mathematical and computing sciences say, you only get out what you put in.

In the Leap Back, for example, once they figured out that Sam was in 1945 from the letter, they said that they had to find information from that time and put it through Ziggy. Once Ziggy had the information, then Gooshie and his team must have been working overtime with the prediction programs trying to figure out what was the most likely scenario. Of course, Ziggy takes all the credit but it's really the human computer users who do the hard work :p
 
If you don't want to see Scott as a bad guy than pretty much the only film I know of NOT to see is In The Name of the People. I only once caught the last half hour or so myself but that is all I needed to find it an uncomfortably tragic film. Basically he murdered a teenage girl and is given the death sentence by lethal injection. To see Sam Beckett in that position was quite unsettling for me.

Those I DO recommend are Lord of Illusions , Above Suspicion and Blue Smoke. I believe Netforce was also good but I can't recall it really. He's also enjoyable in the TV series Murphy Brown where his character has a lot of Al in his personality.

Anyway I apologize I believe I begun the discussion that steered us off topic here.


"I didn't run any scenarios through Ziggy except mine."
This suggests that Ziggy doesn't deliver until asked. We see in The Leap Back that she tends to perform on her own pretenses and is quite the smart a**. After all she does have a big ego.

Oh,I thought the otherwise. I assumed once they get to know whereabouts of Sam,Ziggy automatically delivers the possibilities to Al.
I am sorry for going OT again but thanks for the suggestions. Lord of Illusions will be my first,then :D

Of course, Ziggy takes all the credit but it's really the human computer users who do the hard work :p
Indeed=)
 
ladystoneheart said:
Oh,I thought the otherwise. I assumed once they get to know whereabouts of Sam,Ziggy automatically delivers the possibilities to Al.

Honestly I never put thought into this concept and am not fully certain what to make of it. Thinking about it now it does seem like something of a flaw because it doesn't seem right that Ziggy would withhold information however there is a suggestive moment in The Leap Back. When she interrupts Sam and Donna during making out to announce that she has a theory on Al's leap and then goes silent until Sam prompts her to continue. This suggests that she does at times need persuading to talk.

Yeah...I've got nothing else right now. XD
 
Honestly I never put thought into this concept and am not fully certain what to make of it. Thinking about it now it does seem like something of a flaw because it doesn't seem right that Ziggy would withhold information however there is a suggestive moment in The Leap Back. When she interrupts Sam and Donna during making out to announce that she has a theory on Al's leap and then goes silent until Sam prompts her to continue. This suggests that she does at times need persuading to talk.
I also don't think Ziggy withhold info ( I mean if she's ever capable of doing that ) but Leap Back Ziggy seemed to be so..well arrogant might I say (lol,I don't know if it is right to apply this term in this case)
 
Since I was attempting once again to watch M.I.A for my screen capture collection I realized how ironic Sam's leap into this episode is in relation to the date being April Fools.

"No, no, no, no! Not high heels, not a woman again!"
GTF: "April Fools! You're an undercover cop!"

XD
 
I was giffing this episode other day and I noticed I still don't understand the part Sam says "You know the rules,Al." I mean he basically changed the history (as he always does) with his brother in season 3.So why he can't change it for Al? Is it because without Al,there will be no QL project or what?
(Btw,I am still watching season 4.Are they going to answer this in upcoming episodes?)
 
I noticed I still don't understand the part Sam says "You know the rules,Al." I mean he basically changed the history (as he always does) with his brother in season 3.So why he can't change it for Al?

Sam has a double-standard when it comes to the rules and changing their own lives. It's only okay when it's for himself, which he pretty much admits in 'The Leap Home' the first part, which comes right after this episode. But even before this leap, in Season 1 he also changed his own history with Donna, even though Al told him it was against the rules. He was absolutely right when he told Al that he should have been truthful with him about who Beth was. And I think he was also right that he wasn't necessarily there to fix things for Al and Beth. Sam Beckett Fan articulated very well why it really wouldn't have worked -- it would've been a stretch for Beth to believe that the leapee Jake could possibly know that Al was alive. In fact it might have just upset her more. Likewise, Sam couldn't tell her who he really was or about the project. But as soon as he said "Al, you know the rules. We can't change our own lives" he was being a hypocrite.
 
He was absolutely right when he told Al that he should have been truthful with him about who Beth was. And I think he was also right that he wasn't necessarily there to fix things for Al and Beth.
I agree on that.I mean Al simply --let's say--misguided Sam in whole episode when Sam was actually there for saving his partner's life.Of course Al's intention was to unite with the love of his life not to harm anybody as he admits to Sam but still that police could have died if Sam hadn't seen Al's photo at Beth's place.
Ughh and Donna.Man,he really shouldn't have done that:( I feel sad for her whenever I remember the last frame of the show.
 
Ughh and Donna.Man,he really shouldn't have done that:( I feel sad for her whenever I remember the last frame of the show.

Yeah, the whole Donna thing really leaves a bad taste. She's supposedly the love of Sam's life and he changed things when he wasn't supposed to in order to have her back in his life. Then he just abandons her. Twice.
 
I have already expressed my also disgruntled feelings about the hypocrisy of the statement "You know the rules Al, we can't change our own lives."
Though he vowed not to reveal Donna I believe Al still could have thrown the attempt in his face. Personally I would have liked to see that.

As I've already covered Al is partially at fault however for not being straightforward about his intentions. Something Sam has always been regarding his both personal and I believe the word 'occupational' is fitting enough. Had he explained to Sam straight away what he wanted to attempt perhaps Sam could have possibly accomplished both tasks as well as even had more sympathy towards the situation.

Again I am repeating myself but I'd also like to remind the participants here that Sam's protest hadn't only been about the rules. He also felt that Beth's run ins with Dirk were too coincidental, it seemed more to him like it was supposed to happen. Somewhat like when he found out that Tess never would have married Doc in How the Tess Was Won, that it was always meant to be the one who wrote her love letters.

It had yet to be discovered that it wasn't the case with Beth but there are some things, even those which are cruel, that just can't be changed. Sam learns this in the proceeding leap about his father's coronary and his sister's abusive marriage.

Yeah, the whole Donna thing really leaves a bad taste. She's supposedly the love of Sam's life and he changed things when he wasn't supposed to in order to have her back in his life. Then he just abandons her. Twice.

Let's be somewhat fairer here. The Sam who put her back into a life he had no idea if he'd ever return to was indeed selfish but the Sam that built the project while married to Donna just as the one who built it without her had no idea he would get stuck out there. Let's not forget Al's humorous phrasing that was used in Sam's personal intros during the first season:
"You were a part of a top secret science experiment that went a little caca".
In addition the second abandonment was for Al's life. Far more justified than simply proving that the accelerator worked.
 
I have already expressed my also disgruntled feelings about the hypocrisy of the statement "You know the rules Al, we can't change our own lives."
Though he vowed not to reveal Donna I believe Al still could have thrown the attempt in his face. Personally I would have liked to see that.

As I've already covered Al is partially at fault however for not being straightforward about his intentions. Something Sam has always been regarding his both personal and I believe the word 'occupational' is fitting enough. Had he explained to Sam straight away what he wanted to attempt perhaps Sam could have possibly accomplished both tasks as well as even had more sympathy towards the situation.

Again I am repeating myself but I'd also like to remind the participants here that Sam's protest hadn't only been about the rules. He also felt that Beth's run ins with Dirk were too coincidental, it seemed more to him like it was supposed to happen. Somewhat like when he found out that Tess never would have married Doc in How the Tess Was Won, that it was always meant to be the one who wrote her love letters.

The statement is still hypocritical though, regardless of whether Sam had other reasons to protest changing Al's life or whether he thought Beth and Dirk were meant to be. Whenever Sam wanted to change something for himself he said 'screw the rules' but here he turned around and threw those same rules in Al's face.

I'm not suggesting that Al wasn't in the wrong. In fact I said that Sam was right to call him out on the fact that he wasn't honest with him about who Beth was. Al let his own personal issues get in the way of accomplishing the mission and it could've cost at least one person their life. And I'm not convinced that Sam was supposed to fix Al and Beth, at least at this point. Sam was still being a hypocrite as soon as those words were out of his mouth.

Let's be somewhat fairer here. The Sam who put her back into a life he had no idea if he'd ever return to was indeed selfish but the Sam that built the project while married to Donna just as the one who built it without her had no idea he would get stuck out there.

Well, we don't actually know the circumstances of Sam's first leap in the changed timeline where he was married to Donna. We do know from 'The Leap Back' that the retrieval program didn't work when Sam leaped -- whether they knew it didn't work before he leaped or discovered it afterward is impossible to say. We also know from 'Genesis' that at least in the first timeline Sam did leap prematurely, knowing the project wasn't ready yet. We don't know whether that was the case in the second timeline. And maybe he discussed the decision with Donna first. Maybe he didn't. Judging by the way he behaved to her in 'The Leap Back' once he'd decided to leap to save Al -- and again, this is in big part a flaw of too much being packed into just one episode -- it wouldn't surprise me if Sam just rushed headlong and didn't consult with her about it. In 'The Leap Back' when he was getting ready to leap again he didn't even say a word to her until she asked "Sam, what are you doing?" Granted he was rushing to save Al and time was limited, but still -- he really seemed like he was brushing her off [and again, I think this is an unfortunate effect of the rushedness of the episode].

In addition the second abandonment was for Al's life. Far more justified than simply proving that the accelerator worked.

In my opinion it still goes back to Sam tampering with her life in the first place. Also, as far as we know at the end of the last episode that second abandonment is permanent and by Sam's choice.
 
blue enigma said:
The statement is still hypocritical though, regardless of whether Sam had other reasons to protest changing Al's life or whether he thought Beth and Dirk were meant to be. Whenever Sam wanted to change something for himself he said 'screw the rules' but here he turned around and threw those same rules in Al's face.

I'm not suggesting that Al wasn't in the wrong. In fact I said that Sam was right to call him out on the fact that he wasn't honest with him about who Beth was. Al let his own personal issues get in the way of accomplishing the mission and it could've cost at least one person their life. And I'm not convinced that Sam was supposed to fix Al and Beth, at least at this point. Sam was still being a hypocrite as soon as those words were out of his mouth.

My apologies for misleading, I was not arguing the hypocrisy. Nothing changes the fact that it was. What I intended to express was that that whether or not Sam was willing didn't matter. The way Al conducted it was most of the reason if not THE reason it didn't work.

blue enigma said:
Well, we don't actually know the circumstances of Sam's first leap in the changed timeline where he was married to Donna. We do know from 'The Leap Back' that the retrieval program didn't work when Sam leaped -- whether they knew it didn't work before he leaped or discovered it afterward is impossible to say. We also know from 'Genesis' that at least in the first timeline Sam did leap prematurely, knowing the project wasn't ready yet. We don't know whether that was the case in the second timeline. And maybe he discussed the decision with Donna first. Maybe he didn't. Judging by the way he behaved to her in 'The Leap Back' once he'd decided to leap to save Al -- and again, this is in big part a flaw of too much being packed into just one episode -- it wouldn't surprise me if Sam just rushed headlong and didn't consult with her about it. In 'The Leap Back' when he was getting ready to leap again he didn't even say a word to her until she asked "Sam, what are you doing?" Granted he was rushing to save Al and time was limited, but still -- he really seemed like he was brushing her off [and again, I think this is an unfortunate effect of the rushedness of the episode].

When you're right you're right.
All completely valid points.

blue engima said:
Also, as far as we know at the end of the last episode that second abandonment is permanent and by Sam's choice.

Personally I don't want to buy this, that Sam never returned home. It's not just about Donna. He has a mother a sister and by his own actions a brother and from them nieces and nephews. He has a staff who have basically given their lives to finding a way to bring him home. Would he truly just throw that away? Spit in the face of all those staff members (so to speak)?
There is no reason at that point why he couldn't have returned between leaps.
Such a bogus ending that as Donna does you leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.
 
The way Al conducted it was most of the reason if not THE reason it didn't work.

I'm not sure if I agree with this part completely. It's possible that if Al was truthful with Sam right from the start it would've worked. But I really think the circumstances weren't right for it in this leap. Beth would've been very suspicious as to how the leapee knew about Al and I don't know that Sam could've or would've told her who he really was at this point. Short of continuing to physically keep Beth and Dirk away from each other there really wasn't anything that he could plausibly do as Jake without giving himself away. If his purpose here was to fix Al's marriage he would've had to leap into Beth, or Dirk, or maybe one of their friends, in order to nudge one of them into a different decision. But he leaped into someone who had no relation to either of them. He just happened to be in the same vicinity and Al made an assumption and tried to force it to be that. Which is easy to understand and we sympathize with him. The Donna leap was the same -- Sam was there for something else and Donna happened to be in the vicinity. The circumstances happened to just be easier for Sam to do both. But I don't think he was there for Donna. He didn't leap out until Jamie Lee and Oliver kissed -- that was his purpose for being there.

There's also the question of why Al didn't trust Sam enough to tell him the truth. Maybe he hated the idea of being that vulnerable with Sam. Or maybe he'd already dealt a lot pre-leap with Sam's 'do as I say not as I do' type of double standard and figured it would be the same this time -- which wouldn't be completely fair of him but people react based on experience. We don't know much about their friendship before Sam's leap but I would imagine at least certain dynamics were the same or similar.

Personally I don't want to buy this, that Sam never returned home. It's not just about Donna. He has a mother a sister and by his own actions a brother and from them nieces and nephews. He has a staff who have basically given their lives to finding a way to bring him home. Would he truly just throw that away? Spit in the face of all those staff members (so to speak)?
There is no reason at that point why he couldn't have returned between leaps.
Such a bogus ending that as Donna does you leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

Agreed completely. I was just going by things as they stood as the final episode ended.
 
blue enigma said:
I'm not sure if I agree with this part completely. It's possible that if Al was truthful with Sam right from the start it would've worked. But I really think the circumstances weren't right for it in this leap. Beth would've been very suspicious as to how the leapee knew about Al and I don't know that Sam could've or would've told her who he really was at this point. Short of continuing to physically keep Beth and Dirk away from each other there really wasn't anything that he could plausibly do as Jake without giving himself away. If his purpose here was to fix Al's marriage he would've had to leap into Beth, or Dirk, or maybe one of their friends, in order to nudge one of them into a different decision. But he leaped into someone who had no relation to either of them. He just happened to be in the same vicinity and Al made an assumption and tried to force it to be that. Which is easy to understand and we sympathize with him. The Donna leap was the same -- Sam was there for something else and Donna happened to be in the vicinity. The circumstances happened to just be easier for Sam to do both. But I don't think he was there for Donna. He didn't leap out until Jamie Lee and Oliver kissed -- that was his purpose for being there.

Agreed absolutely, there' no way the leapee could have been convincing, he had barely gotten away with the calalillies (BTW I love the cleverness of her love for them, Calalily like Calavicci...thats how I look at it anyway). I said that in the beginning and I still stand by it however if Sam had known who she was perhaps his approach could have been slightly more tactful.
BTW I highly recommend the novel Pulitzer. It's an amazingly written leap which happens to occur along side Al just returning home from Vietnam, and actually has Sam rethinking his selfishness.
"Would it really have been so bad to just tell her Al was alive?"
He shows a lot of care for his closest friend in this novel as despite observer Al's warnings not to Sam gets heavily involved with the Lt. Al in the leap.

blue enigma said:
There's also the question of why Al didn't trust Sam enough to tell him the truth. Maybe he hated the idea of being that vulnerable with Sam. Or maybe he'd already dealt a lot pre-leap with Sam's 'do as I say not as I do' type of double standard and figured it would be the same this time -- which wouldn't be completely fair of him but people react based on experience. We don't know much about their friendship before Sam's leap but I would imagine at least certain dynamics were the same or similar.

He probably didn't want to appear vulnerable to Sam in addition to being a tightly closed book regarding his family and hardships. My best friend who has quite an amazing handle on Al's character has written some brilliant backstory scenes that express this excellently.

It's also quite possible that he on some level knew that Sam would have a selfish response and not justify the attempt as he did his own with Donna(Though to cut our Sam a little slack it's quite possible he didn't remember the Donna leap, his swiss cheese memory has been clarified as selective). Thus he might not have tried, not that the attempt did much of anything except give Beth a shoulder to cry on when the pain of losing her patient surfaced.

The thought has also intrigued me of Alia actually having leapt into Dirk. I mean "She has a single son and she wants grandchildren"? Come on! That just feels so intentional to me. Plus it would explain the pink sweater...HA! Sorry small joke.

What's beyond me is how Al didn't run other scenarios at the same time. Or as Ladystoneheart has pointed out, how Ziggy didn't offer the Scaggs situation.
 
BTW I highly recommend the novel Pulitzer. It's an amazingly written leap which happens to occur along side Al just returning home from Vietnam, and actually has Sam rethinking his selfishness.
"Would it really have been so bad to just tell her Al was alive?"
He shows a lot of care for his closest friend in this novel as despite observer Al's warnings not to Sam gets heavily involved with the Lt. Al in the leap.

:) I love Pulitzer. It's my favorite of the novels I've read so far.

It's also quite possible that he on some level knew that Sam would have a selfish response and not justify the attempt as he did his own with Donna(Though to cut our Sam a little slack it's quite possible he didn't remember the Donna leap, his swiss cheese memory has been clarified as selective). Thus he might not have tried, not that the attempt did much of anything except give Beth a shoulder to cry on when the pain of losing her patient surfaced.

Yeah, Al knows his friend very well. He may have already had experience with Sam making exceptions for himself. And yeah, he probably didn't remember the Donna leap but still, in 'The Leap Home' when Al asks "Why is it different? Because it's you this time?" Sam says yes. Whether he remembers the Donna leap or not, Sam definitely feels he's special and entitled to more than everyone else.

But in the end he does make things right and we love him for that.

What's beyond me is how Al didn't run other scenarios at the same time. Or as Ladystoneheart has pointed out, how Ziggy didn't offer the Scaggs situation.

If I'm not mistaken Ziggy didn't offer information that wasn't asked for. Even in 'The Leap Back' she plays a game with Sam that he has to drag the information out of her.

As for Al, he wanted this leap to be about Beth so he just didn't check any other scenarios.
 
blue enigma said:
If I'm not mistaken Ziggy didn't offer information that wasn't asked for. Even in 'The Leap Back' she plays a game with Sam that he has to drag the information out of her.

Yeah that's what I was saying earlier but Ladystoneheart had me wondering otherwise.

blue enigma said:
Yeah, Al knows his friend very well. He may have already had experience with Sam making exceptions for himself. And yeah, he probably didn't remember the Donna leap but still, in 'The Leap Home' when Al asks "Why is it different? Because it's you this time?" Sam says yes. Whether he remembers the Donna leap or not, Sam definitely feels he's special and entitled to more than everyone else.

But in the end he does make things right and we love him for that.

True and the fact that he even remembers the rule when he didn't in Star Crossed is suggestive that he remembers being reminded. The novels express that his leap memories are selective but the show doesn't clarify that. As far as well can tell he retains the memories of his previous leaps and his personal memories only continue to return. The only exceptions being the project specifics like Ziggy's inner workings (something that is clarified in The Leap Back) and of course his marriage to Donna. In fact what memories of the project he does retain might only be that of what Al has told him not actual memories.
 
Personally I don't want to buy this, that Sam never returned home. It's not just about Donna. He has a mother a sister and by his own actions a brother and from them nieces and nephews. He has a staff who have basically given their lives to finding a way to bring him home. Would he truly just throw that away? Spit in the face of all those staff members (so to speak)?
There is no reason at that point why he couldn't have returned between leaps.
Such a bogus ending that as Donna does you leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.

You can't argue with canon though. If there had been any ambiguity in the statement "Dr Samuel Becket (sic) never returned home", then you could, but there isn't. The ending leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouths, but it can't be argued with.

And to answer your question "would he truly just throw that away?", we have to remember that while Sam is generally a selfless person, Sam has been known to act selfishly, in situations that have been discussed to death already. We also know that he is highly logical, and it's usually the most logical people who are the least emotional.

I think it is well within Sam's character to take a few losses (like his family and his friends) for the greater good...
 
Lightning McQueenie said:
We also know that he is highly logical, and it's usually the most logical people who are the least emotional.

But Sam is also quite emotional and tends to even argue logic. The fact that he entertains the GTFW theory tells us that he's not completely logical. That's faith not logic. Which interestingly contradicts his being a man of science, they are not typically believers in God. Science vs. Religion is one of life's biggest rivalries.
He's completely illogical in denying that he has self control over his leaps. Even right in the face of the bartender whom depending on your view of that leap could be himself.
 
But Sam is also quite emotional and tends to even argue logic. The fact that he entertains the GTFW theory tells us that he's not completely logical. That's faith not logic. Which interestingly contradicts his being a man of science, they are not typically believers in God. Science vs. Religion is one of life's biggest rivalries.
He's completely illogical in denying that he has self control over his leaps. Even right in the face of the bartender whom depending on your view of that leap could be himself.

I'm not saying that Sam hasn't been known to be emotional or have faith, I'm just saying that if he had to make a choice, he'd follow logic. It's not even him choosing his head over his heart either, as he knew in his heart that he wanted to make the world a better place, he just also knew that he would have to make some sacrifices to do this. Head + Heart > Heart.
 
You can't argue with canon though. If there had been any ambiguity in the statement "Dr Samuel Becket (sic) never returned home", then you could, but there isn't. The ending leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouths, but it can't be argued with.

I don't completely agree with this. In fact, I believe DPB in a post-series interview may have said himself that it's a time travel show about changing the past so anything, even that ending, can be thought of as being changeable.

It's also possible that Dr. Samuel Becket never returned home but Dr. Samuel Beckett did.

And some people just say 'screw canon'.
 
I don't completely agree with this. In fact, I believe DPB in a post-series interview may have said himself that it's a time travel show about changing the past so anything, even that ending, can be thought of as being changeable.

Exactly, DBP's intention for the show is a kind hearted man who touched lives and changed them for the better. Anything scientific or dealing with the logic of time travel was not given a lot of attention and open for interpretation (a liberty the novels use to death). Ziggy's gender is a direct example of this. 'Another Time, Another Place' tells how he had directly addressed that controversy as something he did not care about.

The logic that Sam's never returning home is just as changeable a fact as Al's marriage to Beth or Tom's death in Vietnam is true at an inarguable level. When you interfere with time EVERYTHING is changeable. Even a detail as small and insignificant as a woman choosing to buy a white blouse instead of an orange one. QL novel author Ashley McConnell writes this to death. In Random Measures she mentions Al noticing that Tina's hair color changes in different timelines. Though I personally think she overdoes it for the purpose of the show she's not wrong. There are areas in which I personally feel she is but not in this one.

blue enigma said:
It's also possible that Dr. Samuel Becket never returned home but Dr. Samuel Beckett did.

What the heck? I believe I remember his name was misspelled in those ending comments but...what the heck!? :wacko

blue enigma said:
And some people just say 'screw canon'

The novels certainly do and they are legally published, the ones that have Sam's soul leaping rather than his body. There is clarification that this is disregard of canon. There is a behind the scenes fact (though I can't remember where I heard it) that for the episode The Color of Truth Scott had inquired with DBP as to whether he needed to practice Jesse Tyler's arthritic limp but was told not to because physically he is Sam.
 
It was definitely misspelled. I don't know whose fault that was. Probably someone at NBC. I doubt DPB spelled it wrong.

No doubt there.
Reminds me of Search and Rescue in the novel series. Sam discovers a small article in the corner of a newspaper about himself and his theory and his name is misspelled as 'Becklet'. It was intentional in this case, the article was a symbol of how his theory was scoffed at. It cracked me up though.
 
Something has just come to my attention as I am continuing my MIA screen captures (Thanks to Ladystoneheart for the torrent).
On the way to intercept Beth and Dirk's first encounter Scaggs recites to Sam who insists he 'somehow knows' a happening involving this woman:
"...when she gets a flat tire in the marina and some lawyer fixes it?"
How could Al have possibly gotten that information or that they even met on that date from Ziggy? When they got married would be on record but why would when and how they met be?
Contrary to the novel Pulitzer did Beth perhaps agree to meet with him once when he returned? I can see where the author wouldn't think so, you don't get that feeling from Al. How could Beth have been able to face him after what she did?

On another note, I caught something for the first time. When Sam tells Beth "You've uh...got a little dirt smuge on your nose" if you look closely at his left eye he's still got some of the eyeshadow on from the undercover hooker disguise! LOL! How did Scaggs not catch that!? XD
 
Something has just come to my attention as I am continuing my MIA screen captures (Thanks to Ladystoneheart for the torrent).
On the way to intercept Beth and Dirk's first encounter Scaggs recites to Sam who insists he 'somehow knows' a happening involving this woman:
"...when she gets a flat tire in the marina and some lawyer fixes it?"
How could Al have possibly gotten that information or that they even met on that date from Ziggy? When they got married would be on record but why would when and how they met be?
Contrary to the novel Pulitzer did Beth perhaps agree to meet with him once when he returned? I can see where the author wouldn't think so, you don't get that feeling from Al. How could Beth have been able to face him after what she did?

On another note, I caught something for the first time. When Sam tells Beth "You've uh...got a little dirt smuge on your nose" if you look closely at his left eye he's still got some of the eyeshadow on from the undercover hooker disguise! LOL! How did Scaggs not catch that!? XD

This happens numerous times in the series, where Ziggy immediately knows information that could never have been stored in a database. Another such example is "Another Mother", where Ziggy tells Al when the boy teasing the leapee's son will lose his virginity...
 
This happens numerous times in the series, where Ziggy immediately knows information that could never have been stored in a database. Another such example is "Another Mother", where Ziggy tells Al when the boy teasing the leapee's son will lose his virginity...

Actually that's probable. Perhaps his first time wasn't 'safe' if you catch my drift thus it could be on his medical record. Now the fact that Al expected Ziggy to know (having actually consulted the handlink for it) is an error.